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Sikh Referendum 2020


Guest Jatt
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2 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

Exactly.

 

Pannu is a complete fraud who is just trying to raise his profile for the benefit of his business interests.

I feel bad that some well meaning Sikhs are gullible enough to be fooled by a two-bit con artist like Pannu.  He is pathetic.

I don't know much about Pannu but he at least saved Parmjit Singh Pamma from being sent to an Indian hellhole from Portugal a few years ago. 

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Guest Halemi Raj
On 2/17/2019 at 10:56 AM, proactive said:

The referendum is based around the concept that Punjab today is a colony which the Indians are looting of its resources and its indigenous peoples (Punjabi Sikhs and Hindus, Muslims and Christians) are being oppressed by the Indian govt.

As a supporter of self-determination for all those who desire it as their birthright (especially in the context of historic Genocides) the problem is that the estimated current 46% of Punjabi population in 2019 who are non-Sikhs do not see themselves as oppressed in any way. If anything they would more likely point to a Sikh Prime Minister before Modi, recent Sikh Commander-in-Chiefs of the Indian Armed Forces, Sikhs always being CM in east Punjab and Sikhs being over-represented in terms of MLA seats and police representation in Punjab. Similarly of the estimated 54% of Sikhs left (of whom many voted for the Genocidal Congress Party in 2017) it's clear that a majority simply do not perceive widescale oppression or slavery in 2019 as seen by a 0.3% vote for pro-Khalistan parties in 2017 (contrasted with 1989).  

Punjab is no different to areas like East Timor where the Indonesians sought to settle Javanese people to make the East Timorese into a minority. 

Correct the Indonesians did that but the Muslim settlers comprised 10% of the population there when the vote took place. And the East Timorese constituted an indigenous 90% non-Muslim block in their independence referendum which the USA, UK, Canada, Australia all supported due to the natural resources in the Timor Sea. Sikhs in contrast are about 65% of ethnic Punjabi's which is a significantly lower percentage from the get go and we should not underestimate the level of loyalty some of them have towards Delhi.

East Timor managed to get a referendum and voted for independence.

Developing countries whose existence is supported by the USA, UK, France, Canada, Australia might have stood a chance of securing a referendum given east Timor's independence in 1975. But we should be smart enough to know that USA, UK, Russia, Canada, Australia, France etc all do not care about the Sikhs and realise that if Punjab were to secede there would be no counterweight to China (given India's likely disintegration thereafter). Even the Chinese operate a quid pro quo with the Indians that Modi allows them to happily suppress the Tibetans whilst they in turn give Modi a free hand to do as he pleases in India as the Chinese send multi billions of exports to the Indians themselves.

The India govt is doing the same by settling millions of bhaiyas in Punjab. Most industries in the cities have non-Punjabi majority workforces.

There are already millions settled. The vast majority of them have Punjab based aadhar cards and those with children send them to Punjabi Government schools. 

About 80% of the East Timorese electorate voted (for independence) in the national elections.

This is the difference. The vast majority of the non-Muslim indigenous east Timorese voted for independence to get the almost 80% majority in support of independence. However they got their referendum vote due to support from USA, UK, Australia, Canada etc. In our case we shouldn't kid ourselves that those who supported Indira Gandhi in 1984 will suddenly drop the riches on offer from a population of 1,350 million Non-Sikhs in India to support the human rights of 21 million Sikhs especially when the votes mustered by pro-Khalistan political parties in 2017 was 0.3%. Bear in mind that the Indian economy is projected to be $42 Trillion dollars in size by 2050. We have to be realistic that the USA, UK, Russia, France, Canada are not going to support us as Sikhs at this point in time (2020) or for the foreseeable future (unless Pakistan disintegrates into linguistic states). In the meantime we are better off building up our Qaum under the radar with improvements on all social indices via Diaspora investment funding that.

The referendum is presented as the of the right of the Punjabi people to determine their own national future.

The problem is this primarily overseas referendum will have zero legitimacy or credibility internationally or legally. The UN are not going to suddenly declare Khalistan independent. All it is doing is diverting money and focus that should be prioritised towards the education of poor Sikh children and improvement of social indices among Sikhs (such as the gender imbalance, drug use, health care, ensuring only one Gurdwara per pind) into an avenue that will achieve nothing tangible in the next 2years.

So all these Hindi and Urdu speakers who nowadays are bhaiyas will not have the vote.

Remember that the English recently resident in Scotland had the right to vote in the Scottish referendum which lost, the ethnic Spanish speakers in Catalonia had the right to vote in the Catalonian unofficial referendum (where independence was blocked by the EU) and English speakers were allowed to vote in the Quebec referendum which lost too. And Delhi does not have the degree of civilised mentality like London and Ottawa do. Instead of us advocating the mass deportation or disenfranchisement of millions of Bihari's (and making them hate us for being Sikhs and which the UN and Delhi won't allow in any case) we would be better served by trying to assimilate the Bihari's by emphasising the birthplace of Dhan Dhan Guri Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and Shaheed Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji as Bihar and encouraging and emphasising that sehajdhari Bihari's who attend the Gurdwara are part of the Sikh Panth.

If you count only the Punjabis in Punjab then the population ratio is probably  65:33:1;1 of Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians.

Absolutely correct. But the 35% of non-Sikhs from such an assumed electorate (bearing in mind that even the newcoming Muslim Javanese settlers got the right to vote in East Timor) aren't going to vote for separation from India any time soon given that they speak Hindi and Urdu nowadays. Doaba would vote for staying part of India as we all know.

So to even get a majority vote for independence in the future we would need almost 80% of ethnic Punjabi Sikhs voting for that. Which if you look into sub-demographics in detail is extremely unlikely in the imaginary event of an official binding referendum in 2020 (which the current proposal is not) and the weak 0.3% support that pro-Khalistan parties achieved in 2017.

Contrast that to the level of pre-existing support the Bloc Quebecois, Fretilin, SNP, Puigdemont etc achieved in their respective states prior to their referendums. The Kurds on the other hand actually achieved an overwhelming majority in support of independence but wherever the USA, UK, Russia, France, Canada deem it to be against their interests they do not care about the aspirations or human rights of indigenous people. Which is not surprising given that the UK, France and Russia were racist colonialist powers and that the USA and Canada and Australia were built off the blueprint of Genocide of indigenous people themselves.

The bhaiyas who are Hindus and Muslims will not have the vote. This is the theory at least.

If it helps a few somehow imagine that a real referendum could achieve a majority via that tactic (which the UN or Delhi would not agree to) in the short term then that's fair enough but the more likely reality is that (in the imaginary event of a real referendum) they would in fact be eligible to vote (as we see in the case of newcomers not being excluded in other referendum votes).

What referendum 2020 has done is to give nightmares to the Indian establishment because they can deal with militant activities but a non-violent struggle for independence would be hard for it handle. 

I disagree. I don't think it worries Delhi much given Modi's universal western support from the USA, Canada, UK, the EU, Russia, Australia, Japan etc. It is actually us as Sikhs who stand to lose out more from wasting 2years focussed on a non-tangible exercise. The opposition to the Genocidal terrorists misrule operating from Delhi has been non-violent all the way since 1995. Agreed that Pannun has converted the fringe who still verbally advocated armed struggle (from the safety of the UK and Canada) as a ploy to enrich themselves into realising that only democratic peaceful means can ever stand a chance to succeed in ending Delhi's misrule given the vast mismatch in resources whereby the central Government has 125 times more the manpower and financial resources and 125,000 times more the weaponary and ammunition.

However, that doesn't excuse Pannun:

sending Sikh Sangat's daswand to the relatives of Pakistani soldiers 

openly sharing a common platform with Pakistani's in August 2018

having the SFJ social media machine financed and hosted by Pakistan

having a Pakistani Muslim female as the spokesperson for SFJ

Pannun singing Pakistan's praises and promoting tourism to Pakistan

As for PS Pamma him openly praising the ISI and even Islam on Akaal Channel after having spent years in Pakistan in the 1990's add no weight to his overall credibility. The Indian extradition case against him was non-existant as he was in the UK at the time of the alleged extradition offences. PS Pamma is only guilty of excessive praise for the Pakistani regime and his open Islamophilia. Obviously that doesn't give the Delhi regime the right to demand his extradition when he was enjoying his holiday in Portugal.

The money the R2020 bandwagon is wasting on:

Hundreds catching international flights to various rotating rallies (the London rally even in conjunction with the Pakistani contingent in attendance waving their Kashmir flags failed to get even 1% of the British Sikh population there in support of it)

Wasted transport costs within the same countries (£1,500 per coach) 

Wasted advertising funds with how the Pakistani's and well meaning Sangat bankrolled wall to wall coverage on the various TV Channels for a week

Wasted payments from Sikhs for Justice to Pakistani soldiers are a disgrace

As well as the Hotel and PIA travel costs that Pannun wishes to generate for the Pakistan Govt that sends tonnes of drugs to east Punjab are unforgivable. 

Pannun is shamelessly asking for 100,000 visas to Pakistan for Sikhs which he says SFJ will pay Pakistani Government the visa fees for = $19 million dollars. He doesn't even realise what Panthic divident the same money invested on our own people would generate instead of him acting as a open dalal for Pakistan.

I have called him and emailed him to try and politely advise that we would be better served by spending that money on educating the younger generation in Punjab as it is transparent that this R2020 will achieve nothing in the next 2years. He has failed to respond or reply as he knows he has no answer.

Sadly I think over time he has been thoroughly corrupted into a showman generating funds and clients for his business and tourist receipts for the Pakistani's. He is an average attorney who gathers money and sub-contracts out cases (such as Pamma) to local attorneys pocketing the difference and hence he has millions of dollars worth of properties in New York state. He charges tens of thousands of dollars to get mundeh pukkeh by claiming that they are political dissidents (when in fact they aren't) but that I don't really have a problem with. 

The cases against Amrinder and Badal (which get thrown out)  do not help us and do not help poor Punjabi Sikhs on the ground in Punjab. In fact they are acting as significant drag upon inward investment into Punjab (which result in more deprivation and drug use in Punjab) which suits our enemies just fine.

If people are serious about achieving an independent Punjab, the better way to go about it is to focus our short term resources on Sikh children having 100% literacy and a good education and improving all our social indices (in terms of eradicating female infanticide, drugs and caste consciousness amongst the community by uniting every pind under one united Gurdwara for all). Instead of advocating the deportation or disenfranchisement of Bihari's the better tactic would be to work upon their assimilation as new sehajdhari Sikhs. That way Delhi can send as money people as they want but via parchar they simply become new sehajdhari Sikhs and indeed spread the word to their home states. Then by forming an Anandpur Sahib resolution political party (ie one which wishes to retain a united defence force and currency union with Delhi but advocates a free hand for individual states like Punjab, Gujarat, Bengal, Tamil Nadu, Nagaland etc to tailor their own growth policies at a local level) then that might possibly get somewhere by the 2032 Vidhan Sabha elections at the earliest. And even that assumes that we don't manage to transform ourselves into a minority in Punjab by the 2031 census by trying harder and harder to restrict the number of Sikhs to as small a definition and demographic minority as possible (whilst our opponents classify anyone with a pulse as Hindu to strengthen Hindutva political hegemony). 

And I say all of the above as someone who believes Delhi forfeited any haq upon Sikhs after 1984. But we have to be realistic between what some of us want and what we can realistically achieve in our current condition with the USA, UK, Canada, France, Australia, Russia, China all rolling out the red carpet for Modi nowadays and our community failing to correct itself on gender imbalance, drug use, alcohol consumption caste beliefs and a lack of parchar in order to grow the Panth via non-Punjabi sehajdhari's.

 

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