Hum rulte firte koi baat na puchta - Bhai Manpreet Singh ji Kanpuri

[Akalifauj]

Gurbani is on the internet.  Just as these youth access Instagram, facebook, Snapchat, Twitter and other social media sites and apps they can access Gurbani online and offline.  But they are occupied with taking photos of themselves and all the trips they go on.  I can make up stories of other youth asking why don't certain old people pick up another hobby and stop trying to change Sikhi to what they are only capable of accomplishing.  

If you have a problem with certain kathavachaks.  Then approach them and see what kind of response you get.  I have no issue doing it.  

The youth asked a question to a person who he picked up was not listening to the Guru.  Any Gurmukh would have told him, the Guru not having any emotion at the lose of his sons was the foundation that gave you the freedom to ask such questions.  If it was not for this father, today your name would have been kafir  or Mohammed and you would be bowing to a black rock, while married to your cousin.

[MisterrSingh]

8 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

The youth asked a question to a person who he picked up was not listening to the Guru.  

I'll be sure to forward all future enquiries to you. 

[jkvlondon]

17 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'm being asked questions by younger -- and some not so young -- Sikhs who aren't necessarily religious or even theists (yet they possess a fairly decent comprehension of the Punjabi language and therefore can contextualise what's being said on the Gurdwara stage on the few occasions they attend) but due to cultural and familial connections have a desire to connect with their heritage and generally get to the heart of a few issues without undergoing the parchaar sales pitch.

I'll be honest, some of the questions they pose are the kind of things white people would ask about our religion around 20-25 years ago. They aren't being mean or devious but they are completely lacking any form of sugar-coating one would expect of our so-called co-religionists. At times it's a culture shock for me. Anyone else would get triggered and take it as an affront, but one can usually judge the intentions of someone who isn't taking the peshaab but merely acting out of ignorance and curiosity.

One example of what I was posed by someone last December during the shaheedi / Sahibzaade remembrance events: a young man in his 20's said to me he felt an immense guilt trip being inflicted on Sikhs when almost all parchaar centred on this particular period is simultaneously designed to remind us that Guru Govind Singh Ji felt no pain or sadness at the death of his sons -- because divine incarnations are above such base emotions -- yet the sangat is expected to be practically in mourning at the loss of the Sahibzaade; recent years have seen opening weeping and similar hitherto unseen behaviour in the darbaar itself.

Anyway, his question was, "If their father didn't feel any form of sadness or regret at the loss of his offspring, then why am I being induced into physical acts of mourning designed to make me a loyal follower? What does it matter to me if the father showed no emotion?" Can you believe such a question could originate from one of our supposed own? 

What do the contemporary jathe leadership and assorted babeh of the quom have in response to such questions? Is it clear how we're shooting ourselves in the foot? 

 

truth is Guru ji did feel the loss but as he illustrated when walking through the battlefield  and Bhai Daya Singh (I think) offered to cover Vadde Sahibzahidey 's faces with cloth Guru ji replied that he would want to cover all his children's faces , in other words every Singh was a beloved child and all their deaths were intensely felt , however he did not love his blood related sons more . Guruji loved all his children and tried to emphasise this intensity to all and sundry . Khalsa Mahima is an ode to this love .
Mata ji could see what was going to happen and asked leave of Guru ji , they all felt but they were not overwhelmed by their emotions they kept steady like the well designed keel will slice through turbulent waters . That is the sign of a leader - lead by example .

[MisterrSingh]

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

truth is Guru ji did feel the loss but as he illustrated when walking through the battlefield  and Bhai Daya Singh (I think) offered to cover Vadde Sahibzahidey 's faces with cloth Guru ji replied that he would want to cover all his children's faces , in other words every Singh was a beloved child and all their deaths were intensely felt , however he did not love his blood related sons more . Guruji loved all his children and tried to emphasise this intensity to all and sundry . Khalsa Mahima is an ode to this love .
Mata ji could see what was going to happen and asked leave of Guru ji , they all felt but they were not overwhelmed by their emotions they kept steady like the well designed keel will slice through turbulent waters . That is the sign of a leader - lead by example .

That was exactly my response. 

I just think younger generations and even some of the people of my age bracket who haven't been exposed to that uniquely stoic yet even-handed brand of Sikh spirituality find it difficult to wrap their heads around certain apparently paradoxical concepts and remarkable individuals in our history, especially for those of our people who've been raised on a steady diet of Hollywood-ised emotional indulgence. There's a blurring between fiction and reality AND a further step beyond of the blurring between the former and our particular ways and history, which seems to make some of our own almost incredulous at what they're being asked to digest.

But, as I said, the "superhero mythologising" by our parchaaraks and other people with a voice in the panth, is not helping matters at all. There's ways of inspiring awe and reverence by emphasising the divinity of Sikh personalities without utterly killing any human angle of personal interest. Without wishing to offend anyone, third-worlders might be impressed and cowed by such descriptions of untouchable brilliance, but for slightly more sophisticated and deep thinking westerners who want to FEEL a genuine connection, these types of potential believers are being done a huge disservice, and actually it's causing people to switch off and turn away, especially when they're initially told certain things to get them through the "turnstiles" that Sikhi is unlike the other faiths. 

[jkvlondon]

1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

That was exactly my response. 

I just think younger generations and even some of the people of my age bracket who haven't been exposed to that uniquely stoic yet even-handed brand of Sikh spirituality find it difficult to wrap their heads around certain apparently paradoxical concepts and remarkable individuals in our history, especially for those of our people who've been raised on a steady diet of Hollywood-ised emotional indulgence. There's a blurring between fiction and reality AND a further step beyond of the blurring between the former and our particular ways and history, which seems to make some of our own almost incredulous at what they're being asked to digest.

But, as I said, the "superhero mythologising" by our parchaaraks and other people with a voice in the panth, is not helping matters at all. There's ways of inspiring awe and reverence by emphasising the divinity of Sikh personalities without utterly killing any human angle of personal interest. Without wishing to offend anyone, third-worlders might be impressed and cowed by such descriptions of untouchable brilliance, but for slightly more sophisticated and deep thinking westerners who want to FEEL a genuine connection, these types of potential believers are being done a huge disservice, and actually it's causing people to switch off and turn away, especially when they're initially told certain things to get them through the "turnstiles" that Sikhi is unlike the other faiths. 

They were superhuman  no doubt, but their life was about enveloping each us in that Paramatma's unyielding love and understanding , to put balm of naam on our hurting souls , help us to see the world with their eyes , giving the courage of meeting the state of things as they  stand and confronting the wrongs and bringing blance and freedom to those trapped ...

[puzzled]

I'm sure guru ji was upset when the sahibzade and other singhs were killed, he was their father so why would he be emotionless! The gurus themselves were love! So why wouldn't they feel hurt when a loved one was killed?

Zafarnamah imo is full of a lot of emotion! 

Maybe I'm wrong ...

[MisterrSingh]

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

They were superhuman  no doubt, but their life was about enveloping each us in that Paramatma's unyielding love and understanding , to put balm of naam on our hurting souls , help us to see the world with their eyes , giving the courage of meeting the state of things as they  stand and confronting the wrongs and bringing blance and freedom to those trapped ...

Yet, they also refused to indulge in flagrant and egoistic displays of their abilities to prove their divine credentials BUT when the moment required such actions they weren't averse to showing their hand, as it were. Again, it's that fine, knife-edged difference that some people struggle with, especially when they enter into a discussion where there's a desire for a binary / black & white response to their questions. 

There's a temptation to take a hard-line approach with such people, and dumb everything down to the point of, "Believe or be damned," but I think that would be an unwise strategy considering these people aren't mischievous Muslims or people of other faiths trying to undermine Sikhi while elevating their own faith, but are actually our own brothers and sisters. We don't have the luxury of being so comfortably careless with the manner in which we do vichaar among ourselves.

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 9/15/2018 at 3:15 AM, MisterrSingh said:

I've always maintained that Guru Ram Das Ji's life and specific contributions to Gurbani should be studied by those who themselves are experiencing a difficult and seemingly painful existence. There's a tragic undercurrent to Guru Ji's history, that's relatable and speaks to the broken and the disenfranchised, that is greatly underestimated among the great accounts of warrior-like valour or entirely zen-like spiritual demeanour of other notable personalities in Sikh history. Most contemporary Sikhs of a certain frame of mind would identify and greatly benefit from this exercise. As I grow older, I realise that 4th Paatshsh are, to me, the most "human" of Guru Sahibs, and that's taking nothing away from their divinity.

Omg! I thought i was the only one. All shabads by Guru Ramdaas Ji so emotional and i musy admit they are always my favorite. When M4 comes in sehaj paath im always like this is gonna be good. And it always is. Just yesterday i was thinking its too bad theres no M4 bani in nitnem. 

Ive been thinking this a long time, that the gurbani of each of the gurus follows the earthly life they lived. Guru Nanak dev jis bani is always so philosophical yet so simple and varied in languages as Guruji traveled alot and tried to explain the complex philosophies in simple terms. In household terms. Thats why the metaphors are always like making dahi or marriage or etc.

To me, Guru amardaas Jis bani is almost always about finding the true guru and not wasting life. And as that was a major theme in their life it makes sense.

Guru Ramdas Ji always addresses God as Mother/Father and as they were an orphan..this makes sense.

And Guru Arjan dev ji is a master poet. Using so many different styles and raags and taals..its amazing. 

Guru Tegh Bahadur ji is ofc very tyaagmai bani which matches their life.

[Not2Cool2Argue]

23 hours ago, puzzled said:

I'm sure guru ji was upset when the sahibzade and other singhs were killed, he was their father so why would he be emotionless! The gurus themselves were love! So why wouldn't they feel hurt when a loved one was killed?

Zafarnamah imo is full of a lot of emotion! 

Maybe I'm wrong ...

I think ur right. But its important to distinguish between pyaar and moh. When its moh, theres always the mine in it. I love you because ur my son. I think panjabi parents are always using moh. Their love is conditional and they r trying to mold u into wat they want. And they want to posess u and keep u. 

While love is more, just appreciating and enjoying someones presence. For the time you have with them without conditions. When Sahibzada Jujhar Singh wanted to go fight in battle. No punjabi parent wouldve let them go. Even if the child wanted to.  Even if not fighting wouldve let the child be captured.  So real love is looking beyond their relationship.to you..

Even my little brother asked, did Guruji really like his sons. After watching the 3D sahibzade movie. Because in it they show guru ji as a picture with a frozen face all.throughout the movie. And i had to show him the part in the movie which shows guruji hugging the sahibzade. (With the same frozen expression tho.) 

But u just have to look at how the gurus family was treated. They lived in splendor and were treated reverentially. At this most sikhs would say that Guruji did "love" them and if there was no shaheedi that guruji indulged and spoiled them.see but when time came for hardship, allowing is family to undergo hardship.is not love. Tho i think it is. As it allows them to choose and be leaders and participate in a challenge.

I think this debate of whether the gurus felt pain and emotion is complicated. They did but they knew there was something higher and better. And we can know this too and conquer pain. Ofc theres parchaariks who say that Bhai mati daas ji being cut into pieces didnt feel anything because he could leave his body and was a brahmgiani. But i think.its because the parchaarik thinks the pain is unbearable. That if it was felt, no way could it be borne. That just shows his limit.

 

[MisterrSingh]

1 hour ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Omg! I thought i was the only one. All shabads by Guru Ramdaas Ji so emotional and i musy admit they are always my favorite. When M4 comes in sehaj paath im always like this is gonna be good. And it always is. Just yesterday i was thinking its too bad theres no M4 bani in nitnem. 

Ive been thinking this a long time, that the gurbani of each of the gurus follows the earthly life they lived. Guru Nanak dev jis bani is always so philosophical yet so simple and varied in languages as Guruji traveled alot and tried to explain the complex philosophies in simple terms. In household terms. Thats why the metaphors are always like making dahi or marriage or etc.

To me, Guru amardaas Jis bani is almost always about finding the true guru and not wasting life. And as that was a major theme in their life it makes sense.

Guru Ramdas Ji always addresses God as Mother/Father and as they were an orphan..this makes sense.

And Guru Arjan dev ji is a master poet. Using so many different styles and raags and taals..its amazing. 

Guru Tegh Bahadur ji is ofc very tyaagmai bani which matches their life.

Veer ji, I've been fortunate to listen to continuous jaaps of Gurbani in the past few months, and I've too been struck by the things you've mentioned above. The tone and content of the compositions of Bhagat Ravi Daas are also indicative of what we know their waking mind was occupied by during their life. There's a poetic sadness to their Gurbani that is incredibly emotional, more so when one's aware of the historical and personal context of the bani they created.