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Do you agree and support Ranjit Dhahderanwala Prachar?


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Do you agree and support Ranjit Dhahderanwala Prachar?  

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  1. 1. Do you agree and support Ranjit Dhahderanwala Prachar?

    • Yes
      20
    • No
      30
    • I don't know him
      9


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On 10/30/2018 at 11:04 AM, Jaggaa said:

@Singhballer I read your response a couple of times. I must say it's very well written and I appreciate the way you have approached what you think the relationship between science/logic is to Sikhi. I think we've started to lose the intended reason of the topic. People are against Bhai Ranjit Singh because of him calling out a lot of the story/sakhian spread throughout our history.

He's not exagtly a scientist so I can't really comment on how elaborate or parallel his view is to science but when it comes to Gurbani and especially the historical side of our Sikh faith and the impact history has on it I must say he makes one think if perhaps maybe what had happened before Guru Nanak jee's arrival has now come full circle and we're back in the same spot.

I see people using certain stories to gain exclusivity and influence under the banner of Guru Sahib. Just because a particular Sakhi was written/spoken by a well known "Gursikh" in say the 1800's doesn't automatically make it authentic because what's there to say he didn't just do what the same people are doing today? Many of these people such as Bhai Thakur Singh and others are going to go down in history in a very positive light. Does that mean the generation which arrives in say 2400 should have blind faith in their stories?

The main fault that Sikhs find with Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji's parchaar, I think, is the following:

  1. He is redefining Sikhi, Gurbani, our history, our traditions, our culture, our literature, by using western philosophy (logic, science, etc.), that too with an incomplete comprehension of it

Specifically, he is interpreting Sikhi through a lens that is not Gurmat, but a foreign philosophy. Thus it leads to:

  1. His interpretations causing him to change core principles and values of Sikhi
  2. His distorted understanding of Sikhi leads him to renounce and discard Panth-approved Sikh history 

Is it wrong to "call out" history/sakhian

In short, no.

But to disprove accepted history, you have to have evidence the written history is factually incorrect, that the Poet's research was flawed, or that the written history is philosophically incorrect, that it is plainly against Sikh values and principles. 

  • Our written history is compiled in many granths (Suraj Parkash, Panth Parkash, Gurbilas Patshaahi 6, etc.), and each written by different poets (Bhai Santokh Singh, Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangoo, etc.) 
  • To disprove those written accounts one must:
    • Do their own historical research, find additional written sources, do archaeological studies, that result in differing evidence
  • Bhai Vir Singh Ji did that in his Suraj Parkash Steek
    • There are inaccuracies in Suraj Parkash due to:
      • 1. Incomplete information compiled by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji 
      • 2. Tampering and alteration of his work by his Brahmin assistants 
    • Bhai Vir Singh Ji brings forth additional evidence through his own historical research to show that some things in the Granth are inaccurate. For example, some of the battles of Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur are stated to have taken place in the wrong villages 

I don't believe Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji has done any santhiyaa/adhyaain of any of those historical granths. You may notice he doesn't present any new historical or archaeological evidence when denouncing historical accounts. To prove them to be inauthentic it requires immense work and research, which he is not doing. 

 

On 10/30/2018 at 11:04 AM, Jaggaa said:

Bhai Sahib is entitled to his own interpretation to Guru Sahib, at no point is he going against Gurbani. He has his own viewpoint. I'd say he comes from a very priveleged background having initially been among a sadhu/dera background and now exploring more mainstream Sikhi - people who are outright disregarding him because he's challenged something they were taught from a young age. That's what I don't agree with.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of Sikhi/Gurbani, but for it to be accepted in the Panth's court, it has to be rooted in the Guru's Mat. 

  • As I said in my original post, even the RSS has their own interpretation of Sikhi and the Khalsa (as the military wing of Hindus created to protect Hindustan). But their interpretation comes from the viewpoint of Hindu philosophy
  • In the same way Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji, and the missionary parchariks at large, are interpreting Sikhi using western philosophy (logic/science). This results in a distorted and skewed understanding of Sikhi that is incorrect. 
  • The Panth largely agreed on a vast majority of Sikhi values, principles, and history. Its okay to challenge these if done with sound evidence and relying on Gurmat, and not a foreign philosophy. Sikhs are upset with Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji because his challenges are not evidence based and are rooted in non-Sikh philosophies. 

There have been differing interpretations of Sikhi/Gurbani for hundreds of years. But you will notice the differences of the interpretations are not that large. All the different Viakhiya or interpretations by the Udasis, Nirmale, Gianis/Taksaal, and Nihang Singhs are within the same spectrum of thought. 

Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji and the missionaries are creating a completely new off-shoot and spin-off of interpretation that is not based on the Guru's mat

To understand the different branches of interpretation within Sikhi, how western philosophy found its way into our interpretations, and an analysis of our current state, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND listening to the following video of Sardar Prabhsharandeep Singh. It will be well worth your 40 minutes. 

 

Start at 7:51.

 

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On 10/30/2018 at 5:04 PM, chatanga1 said:

People are also against ghaghri because he has called Bhai Gurdas Ji a liar. He has also committed the folly of trying to redefine what "god" is which against the Mool Mantar. He has also told people that "god " wants them to sleep-in, in the mornings because that is the way "god" has designed them, to recharge their batteries instead of waking up for nitnem.

I'm sure you have heard ghaghri say that births and deaths are only in the mind. What nonsense is that?

 

This has nothing to do with sakhian. You are trying to portray this as the only reason that people are against ghaghri.

 

So do I. I see a person in flambouyant outfits which I would expect to see in Brazilian gay/lesbian parades gaining influence only because of SGGS in his diwans and a load of brain-dead cult followers.

 

 

So the Guru could make mistakes according to you? Bhai Gurdas Ji vaaram contain a lot of sakhis. Guru Sahib also selected Bhai Gurdas Ji to scribe SGGS. Could Guru Sahib have done this without knowing that Bhao Gurdas has written in his vaars?

 

Saying there is no reincarnation. No 84 lakh joon is going against Guru Sahib.

 

"mainstream" ? Mainstream Sikhi has never rejected reincarnation.

 

Thats because you are wrong. People, like me, outrightly oppose him because of his anti-gurmat teachings.

I oppose him because he is a big supporter of darshan rogis group in USA. They support him and he supports them. the same rogi who changed the khande di pahul vidhi.

Such a heinous crime by darshan rogi yet not ONE word from ghaghri about it whilst every Sikh who has faith in his Guru has spoken against rogi.

 

 

Tough. I might not be the person who you are refering to, but I will respond to any type of applause from anyone for ghaghri.

I myself don't understand why you would stand in support of someone who has said the anti-gurmat things ghaghri has said. its like you have no faith in Gurbani.

 

Chatanga veer I watched that video where he was claiming it was against kudrat de niam to get up for amritvela so, not necessary for a gursikh to do but I couldn't find that video , any idea ? I remember Nivair Jatha guy and his look of shock when he said that

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On 10/31/2018 at 4:30 PM, Singhballer said:

Bhai Vir Singh Ji did that in his Suraj Parkash Steek

  • There are inaccuracies in Suraj Parkash due to:
    • 1. Incomplete information compiled by Bhai Santokh Singh Ji 
    • 2. Tampering and alteration of his work by his Brahmin assistants 
  • Bhai Vir Singh Ji brings forth additional evidence through his own historical research to show that some things in the Granth are inaccurate. For example, some of the battles of Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur are stated to have taken place in the wrong villages 

Kavi Santokh Singh was a kavi, a poet. He was not a historian. Kavi Ji's modus operandi was to visit places associated with the Gurus and take details of the prevalent stories there and render them in Braj Bhasha.

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17 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Kavi Santokh Singh was a kavi, a poet. He was not a historian. Kavi Ji's modus operandi was to visit places associated with the Gurus and take details of the prevalent stories there and render them in Braj Bhasha.

Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji, was a poet indeed, but beyond that he was an immense vidhvaan of the Panth. He was a great scholar and theologian too, as is exemplified by his Japji Sahib translation in his Garab Ganjani Teeka. 

I would say Bhai Santokh Singh Ji also fits the mold of an historian. It was immense work and research he did compiling historical literature/records, recording oral accounts, visiting historical sites, and then analyzing all the information, scrutinizing it for accuracy, and compiling it all into the poetic masterpiece that is Suraj Parkash.

He may even be the Panth's foremost historian! 

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On 10/31/2018 at 10:02 AM, jkvlondon said:

Chatanga veer I watched that video where he was claiming it was against kudrat de niam to get up for amritvela so, not necessary for a gursikh to do but I couldn't find that video , any idea ? I remember Nivair Jatha guy and his look of shock when he said that

Lol, that's the thing, all these followers of Dhadrianwale (including the NKJ crew) have to decide whether they follow the mat (philosophy) previously preached by Dhadrianwale, or they just follow Dhadrianwale, no matter what he says.

If they choose to follow Dhadrianwale off a cliff, they then become bande de bande (slave of a man) instead of slave of God.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਹੋਇ ਬੰਦੇ ਦਾ ਬੰਦਾ।

Satigur Saahibu Chhadi Kai Manamukhu Hoi Banday Daa Bandaa |

Manmukh, the mind-orientated, leaving away the true Guru Lord becomes slave of man.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧੫ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੧

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11 hours ago, Singhballer said:

Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji, was a poet indeed, but beyond that he was an immense vidhvaan of the Panth. He was a great scholar and theologian too, as is exemplified by his Japji Sahib translation in his Garab Ganjani Teeka. 

I would say Bhai Santokh Singh Ji also fits the mold of an historian. The immense amount of work and research he did compiling historical literature/records, recording oral accounts, visiting historical sites, and then analyzing all the information, scrutinizing it for accuracy, and compiling it all into the poetic masterpiece that is Suraj Parkash.

He may even be the Panth's foremost historian! 

Thanks for the info. I think indeed Kavi Ji was more than a poet as per your post.

Can I ask whether you have done some serious reading/listening to this Granth?

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