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[MrDoaba]

2 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

there were murti in the parikarma during the time of British sponsoredmahant control

Interesting you mention "British sponsored"...people regularly claim that the Singh Sabha did not have British involvement...that might well be true, maybe it was only the Udasis but everything about Singh Sabha et al was British/Christian lol. Their whole framework, their education, their sochni was all Abrahamic/British. People can sing their praises all day long but the fact remains, the harm Singh Sabha did far far outweighs any perceived good. It was a radical and hostile revisionist-reformist campaign, tremendously insidious...and we are dealing with the kales even today.

[jkvlondon]

4 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Interesting you mention "British sponsored"...people regularly claim that the Singh Sabha did not have British involvement...that might well be true, maybe it was only the Udasis but everything about Singh Sabha et al was British/Christian lol. Their whole framework, their education, their sochni was all Abrahamic/British. People can sing their praises all day long but the fact remains, the harm Singh Sabha did far far outweighs any perceived good. It was a radical and hostile revisionist-reformist campaign, tremendously insidious...and we are dealing with the kales even today.

the mahants who were corrupt had sponsorship of the British to hold the properties of Guru ji and prevent sikhs from wresting control . I mean the saka Nanakana Sahib and Guru ka Bagh  is plain for all to see the mahants were aided and abetted by the Angreez

Neither in the period from Guru Ram Dasji until the time of zakraiya khan did Harmandir sahib have any Murtis there so there was never any precedent set by Guru ji

[Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh]

8 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

there's an older thread discusses this :

 

 

Yes that was a good discussion. But...pretty much everything has in the past been discussed to death on this site and the one constant is that no one learns a damn thing. 

[MrDoaba]

23 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the mahants who were corrupt had sponsorship of the British to hold the properties of Guru ji and prevent sikhs from wresting control . I mean the saka Nanakana Sahib and Guru ka Bagh  is plain for all to see the mahants were aided and abetted by the Angreez

Fair enough, I'm not saying every single Udasi/Mahant was ucha sucha. Nor am I saying that everything was perfect at the time. The Gurdwaras that were illegally held should have been under the Panth's control. But removing one corrupt bunch only to replace it with another...what good did it do? There is still a mountain of problems, if not more than there was at that time, most of which are either indirectly or directly due to them.

Can you wholeheartedly deny that Singh Sabha didn't revise and reform Sikhi in a negative way? That they didn't whitewash Sikhi? That they didn't use a Abrahamic/British framework? That they didn't attempt to change the very nature of Sikhi with their own mat?

You and I are on different ends of the spectrum Sikhi-wise, that's a given, but surely I don't think even you would agree that they "saved" Sikhi and rid the Panth of so many terrible problems.

[jkvlondon]

1 minute ago, MrDoaba said:

Fair enough, I'm not saying every single Udasi/Mahant was ucha sucha. Nor am I saying that everything was perfect at the time. The Gurdwaras that were illegally held should have been under the Panth's control. But removing one corrupt bunch only to replace it with another...what good did it do? There is still a mountain of problems, if not more than there was at that time, most of which are either indirectly or directly due to them.

Can you wholeheartedly deny that Singh Sabha didn't revise and reform Sikhi in a negative way? That they didn't whitewash Sikhi? That they didn't use a Abrahamic/British framework? That they didn't attempt to change the very nature of Sikhi with their own mat?

You and I are on different specturms Sikhi-wise, that's a given, but surely I don't think even you would agree that they "saved" Sikhi and rid the Panth of so many terrible problems.

if you believe god is some GUY on a cloud somewhere sure your mind is not open enough to comprehend the deptha and bredth of Akal Purakh of sikhi's faith.similarly the faith of those who subdivide Akal Purakh into facets as simple as created and  The Singh sabha was necessary and brave enough to put their lives and bodies on the line to overthrow the Firangi control whether remote or direct so for their sacrifices I matha tek to their sikhi asool. The movement generated scholars too who helped us to preserve the original gurmukhi multilevel understanding in a form accessible to most sikhs (mahan kosh). But the methodology used was too rigid and almost too heavily reliant on english research methods ...

[MrDoaba]

3 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

The Singh sabha was necessary and brave enough to put their lives and bodies on the line to overthrow the Firangi control whether remote or direct

This is a moot point given what I said earlier - everything about Singh Sabha et al was British/Christian lol. Their whole framework, their education, their sochni was all Abrahamic/British. Now we have their successors, the Mahaan SGPC who are doing excellent work in the preservation and promotion of Sikhi.

You live in London, and I'll assume you've been to the Singh Sabha Gurdwaras dotted around there...they hardly uphold Maryada or preach Sikhi Sidhant. Most of it is watered down nonsense and skewed prachaar.

16 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

matha tek

That's entirely up to you but I would have to say matha tek'ing is a bit extreme lol.

8 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

The movement generated scholars too who helped us to preserve the original gurmukhi multilevel understanding in a form accessible to most sikhs (mahan kosh). But the methodology used was too rigid and almost too heavily reliant on english research methods ...

What about all the Sampardaic Vidhvaans and personalities who they marginalised and sidelined almost to the point of non-existence? What about the actual scholars who taught and preached Traditional Sikhi? They labeled them as wrong and fringe groups...and had the audacity to label themselves as "mainstream Sikhism" and the universal standard.

Sampardaic and Puratan works were hardly known of until recently.

The only thing that comes to mind is the words ਸਤਿਆ ਨਾਸ.

[Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi]

11 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

the mahants who were corrupt had sponsorship of the British to hold the properties of Guru ji and prevent sikhs from wresting control . I mean the saka Nanakana Sahib and Guru ka Bagh  is plain for all to see the mahants were aided and abetted by the Angreez

Its truly miraculous how Sikhs managed to get control of Harmandar sahib and other shrines before 1947 . Because if we didn't by 1947, then the GoI would have never allowed sikhs to take control of Harmandar sahib and TODAY harmandar sahib would have been a hindu temple . Geez . Such a timely save ! 

It shows Waheguru is always ang sang 

SGGS would talk back to sikhs even during those times when they asked for help from guru sahib and "tann mann kaat sab arpi , wich agni aap jarae" was the hukamnama shabad Nanakana sahib movement head Singh got and that actually happened . 

Our guru is omnipotent

[Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi]

10 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

What about all the Sampardaic Vidhvaans and personalities who they marginalised and sidelined almost to the point of non-existence? What about the actual scholars who taught and preached Traditional Sikhi? They labeled them as wrong and fringe groups...and had the audacity to label themselves as "mainstream Sikhism" and the universal standard.

Sampardaic and Puratan works were hardly known of until recently.

The only thing that comes to mind is the words ਸਤਿਆ ਨਾਸ.

You can always convert if you don't like monotheistic Sikhi . 

[Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi]

11 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Fair enough, I'm not saying every single Udasi/Mahant was ucha sucha. Nor am I saying that everything was perfect at the time. The Gurdwaras that were illegally held should have been under the Panth's control. But removing one corrupt bunch only to replace it with another...what good did it do? There is still a mountain of problems, if not more than there was at that time, most of which are either indirectly or directly due to them.

Can you wholeheartedly deny that Singh Sabha didn't revise and reform Sikhi in a negative way? That they didn't whitewash Sikhi? That they didn't use a Abrahamic/British framework? That they didn't attempt to change the very nature of Sikhi with their own mat?

You and I are on different ends of the spectrum Sikhi-wise, that's a given, but surely I don't think even you would agree that they "saved" Sikhi and rid the Panth of so many terrible problems.

If there would have been no Singh Sabha, there would have been NO Sikhism today ! period ! 

Singh Sabha movement gave water to the dying plant of Sikhi . It revitalized and reinvogorated the sikh qaum . 

No wonder then , the kaum de dushman (rss and some sikhs within the qaum) despise singh sabha . 

[jkvlondon]

4 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

If there would have been no Singh Sabha, there would have been NO Sikhism today ! period ! 

Singh Sabha movement gave water to the dying plant of Sikhi . It revitalized and reinvogorated the sikh qaum . 

No wonder then , the kaum de dushman (rss and some sikhs within the qaum) despise singh sabha . 

correction bro it was the shaheedi jathey who watered the booti of sikhi with their blood  there are some parts of the singh sabha lehar which went away from sikhi sidhant namely the discrimination against mazhabi sikhs at gurdwarey which was something that was started up by corrupt hindu mahants and its spirit kept alive in some quarters by factions in the singhsabha movement , the fact that the movement handed over gurdwara affairs to a committee that had nonsikh government intereference in it constitution is the single most destructive thing they did . This has allowed GOI a chance to meddle surruptiously for decades.