Abortion

[RajKaregaKhalsa1]

3 hours ago, puzzled said:

so it would be wrong to kill it after that stage, so what about before the stage when the soul enters  is it ok to abort it then?

No, Bhaji we all know the answer is that abortion is wrong and is murder. It is a Paap because we are not going through our karams and are adding bad karams onto our Lekha. Waheguru blessed us with a child. Take care of the child.

[Guest London jwaan]

On 1/26/2019 at 7:55 AM, BhForce said:

If you mean that tearing babies' limbs with forceps did not happen, OK, fine. However, that does not mean abortifacient herbs did not exist.

No.

No.Someone invents a new way of killing, and you say that "by definition" Sikhism doesn't have a clear position?

Is killing with chemical injections "by definition" unclear morally?

Is killing by electrocution "by definition" unclear? 

By running someone over with a car?

The very fact that you say that means you haven't a clue about what Gurbani is supposed to be. It's not a rulebook like the Old Testament.

It's a testament to Godliness. There's no way a Godly person could kill another being for their own benefit other than to save their life.

If that's your approach to Gurbani, you can go your entire life and not get the point.

Bhforce,

The simple fact that you are unable to understand the difficulty in determining when a foetus becomes a baby, and the difference between the two is disappointing at best, and at worst is a sign of the limitations of your intellectual capability.....

Metaphorically wave your kirpan around as  much as you like,like it or not, sikhism does not have a clear position on this. 

And the fact that you haven't addressed my question about abortion following rape infers to me that you are unable to answer it.

I couldn't agree more that gurbani is not a rulebook. However it is also not a circus, where every apna who feels like it can misinterpret its teachings to suit a line of argument retrospectively. It's also not like Islam where an edict is given by an ayatollah to provide a retrospective interpretation that everyone blindly accepts.

The fundamental problem in your post where you have talked about "killing" and "person" means an actual person. Is a foetus a person. Shockingly, i actually agree with my old foe jagsaw here.

And to address what is probably just about the stupidest comment in your post, please provide details of any abortion procedure that involves "tearing the limbs with forceps". Are you educated? Where did you learn this insightful medical knowledge? From the medical school of jkv?

[Redoptics]

Interesting video you might want to watch.

 

 

[BhForce]

On 1/27/2019 at 7:31 AM, Guest London jwaan said:

Shockingly, i actually agree with my old foe jagsaw here.

No problem, bro, I have agreed and disagreed with just about every person (oops, there's that word again!) on this forum. Including you.

By the way, why don't you just go to the trouble of creating an account? They are free. You don't have to enter your credit card number. It facilitates discussion.

On 1/27/2019 at 7:31 AM, Guest London jwaan said:

Metaphorically wave your kirpan around as  much as you like

Sorry to say, it's hard to see how your use of blasphemous metaphors can be but anything but a demonstration of your estimation of the weakness of your arguments. You know full well I have not waved a kirpan or any other weapon around, other than my mere words. Your fear is merely of words, not a deadly weapon.

On 1/27/2019 at 7:31 AM, Guest London jwaan said:

at worst is a sign of the limitations of your intellectual capability.....

Do explain like I'm 5, Jawan.

On 1/27/2019 at 7:31 AM, Guest London jwaan said:

The simple fact that you are unable to understand the difficulty in determining when a foetus becomes a baby, and the difference between the two

Well, let's just stick to this one question: What is a baby? And what is a fetus?

Do the words have fixed meanings? Or are they merely meaningless sounds? If the latter, no further discussion is warranted.

Just because you think there's a difference between a fetus and a baby that allows the killing of the former, go ahead and define the terms in whatever way that you think makes sense, and we can go from there.

[Guest London jwaan]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:01 PM, BhForce said:

Do explain like I'm 5, Jawan.

Well, let's just stick to this one question: What is a baby? And what is a fetus?

Do the words have fixed meanings? Or are they merely meaningless sounds? If the latter, no further discussion is warranted.

Just because you think there's a difference between a fetus and a baby that allows the killing of the former, go ahead and define the terms in whatever way that you think makes sense, and we can go from there.

I'm sorry, but I think you might be 5......

"Meaningless sounds"??? What the devil are you on about?

A baby is a person and a foetus is not. It's a scientific definition.

And I note the total lack of your reply regarding my question about rape and abortion.

And lastly, please enlighten the e-sangat about the abortion procedure involving the ripping of limbs with forceps.....what's your source? Facebook??

[jkvlondon]

On 1/25/2019 at 8:41 AM, mahandulai said:

 

if it is sooooooooooooooooooooooo bad, why do people do it

because they have no fear of the karmic punishment, it's just like suicide , if you end this life you will have to live it again. If you have been selected to give birth to a handicapped child perhaps it's because you owe a karmic debt of sewa to that soul ; our family friends contacts are souls which have an account with us .

If you are in a bad situation consult Guru ji , do ardasfor guidance and help Guru ji will show you the way forward.

As for those families who do sex selection abortions , don't marry , associate with ANY or their family and advise others of the same . When their beloved sons can get no wives maybe then they will wake up .

As for the females/ males who take sex as a game , they need a sharp lesson ; of course they will be destined to give birth to those children again and again whether they like it or not.

[jkvlondon]

On 1/26/2019 at 6:33 AM, BhForce said:

There is simply no such "belief". It was simply made up by "Yogi Bhajan" to please his followers.

Christians used to have a belief in something called the "quickening", which means that supposedly the soul enters the baby after a few months.

It's totally unscientific, don't fall for it.

If you can't go and kill the rapist on your own, on what basis can you go and kill another party?

 

No it does not. Go ahead and quote it, if you want.

quickening is the term used to describe the point at which the child is more active and you can feel it not so much soul entering the flesh.

The baby's heart starts to beat at around 6 weeks. If people argue that is the first signs of life then they are deluded the souls is assigned before the body is completed .

[jkvlondon]

On 1/27/2019 at 3:31 PM, Guest London jwaan said:

Bhforce,

The simple fact that you are unable to understand the difficulty in determining when a foetus becomes a baby, and the difference between the two is disappointing at best, and at worst is a sign of the limitations of your intellectual capability.....

Metaphorically wave your kirpan around as  much as you like,like it or not, sikhism does not have a clear position on this. 

And the fact that you haven't addressed my question about abortion following rape infers to me that you are unable to answer it.

I couldn't agree more that gurbani is not a rulebook. However it is also not a circus, where every apna who feels like it can misinterpret its teachings to suit ,a line of argument retrospectively. It's also not like Islam where an edict is given by an ayatollah to provide a retrospective interpretation that everyone blindly accepts.

The fundamental problem in your post where you have talked about "killing" and "person" means an actual person. Is a foetus a person. Shockingly, i actually agree with my old foe jagsaw here.

And to address what is probably just about the stupidest comment in your post, please provide details of any abortion procedure that involves "tearing the limbs with forceps". Are you educated? Where did you learn this insightful medical knowledge? From the medical school of jkv?

the baby in utero until birth is referred to as a foetus it is birth which changes that named status but for sikhs  the point is about life and hukham not names given by science bods.

given the technology a child born at 23 weeks can be saved although risks are great in that state of immaturity the abortion cut off at 24 weeks is repugnant as by that stage the foetus is responding to sounds it hears especially voices of parents  , moving , responding to emotions of mother (via hormonal changes) having hiccups pretty much near all cognative functions.

my sons were born at 30 weeks  and I can see how difficult an abortion at seven weeks earlier would be , this is a person.

[Guest Thought]

Well from my life all I can say is please do not think of Abortion because if you decide to keep the baby you will not be able to love that child. You will put the child in life time misery. I am one of them and I could never swallow that the mother and the father are my true parents.  You will feel you are not from this world. The fetus knows everything around the surroundings. The child will not be able to learn why they are acting this way. I found out and it made lots of sense why I used to say I was not born through a mother even when I 5 years old. I do not have left the family because I feel I am not supposed to be here in this world. 

Either the parents should decide to abort or not even think about ending a fetus life. I came to learn it was because I was a very active fetus and the mother did not like me for that.

[Redoptics]

ਮਾਤ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਦੇ ਤਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੇ

॥ Maath Garabh Mehi Aapan Simaran Dhae Theh Thum Raakhanehaarae ||

In our mother's womb, You blessed us with Your meditative remembrance, and You preserved us there.

ਸੋਰਠਿ (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੮) ੧:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੬੧੩ ਪੰ. ੧੬  Raag Sorath Guru Arjan Dev - Ang 613