Shall we start s debate on Christianity?

[Guest GuestSingh]

17 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Yeah I think individual differences play a big part. Our conception of identity. What resonates with us. I mean you can get brothers brought up in the same household who have completely different worldviews.

age plays a huge role...

the eldest are more cautious by nature since culture/parents/family expect us to set a good example and lead others on the right path...so this actually makes em more thoughtful/intelligent cuz they gotta think more about personal choices/habits, decisions and self-image etc. whereas the younger brats are given more freedom with less burden...so although the eldest are forced to suppress their emotions and not be who we really are or wanna be in life by taking different paths e.g. education over creativity...we tend to be more capable of thinking 'outside the box' and seeing the 'bigger picture' i.e. sikhi over maya since the process happens over so many years...

but there can be exceptions e.g. the eldest can become the opposite later in life as can the youngest...but sometimes theyre able to keep the good stuff and strike a bit of a balance...again its  experiences/exposures/personality/variables big or small not forgetting more importantly waheguru da hukam.

What I found was that when I was younger, it was the stirring narrative of our history that made me proud to be Sikh. Later, in my 30s, I suddenly realised that behind all the macho warrior stuff was something else. Sikhi. The meditation, prayers, the high culture (with its high ethics) that our Gurus developed and passed to us.

mine was the opposite..already mentioned my story on here in a previous post but basically after meeting a pleasant gursikh, there was a strong desire to research my identity/culture..then after spending time with a chrisitian my belief was that 'god' is what was missing from my life..then reading the history, the saakhia of countless shaheeda..that was the wake-up call that changed my life...

It's actually really useful, to destress and centre ourselves, especially if we've had 'colourful' pasts and upbringings.

only just beginning to realise and understand the importance of this myself after recently moving away from home...the time and space away from the bad memories is priceless...it really does help to understand, accept and overcome so many things - my own state of mental health has improved from several months ago...

Just out of interest (I'm presuming you're 3rd generation?), why do you think your parents were indifferent to passing on your heritage to you?

yh bro 3rd gen.

my guess is both each having a violent and dominant father who forced em to do what they didnt wanna do e.g. speaking panjabi at home, eating 'indian' food everyday etc. which mustve made em resent it plus other cultural norms that conflicted with growing up in western society..then theres the common lack of education/knowledge on dharam - my dad is actually panjabi hindu and my mom sikh but that had no effect on my thinking/being since they rarely talked about either ...suppose all thats gonna make anyone westernised?

I think many of the younger generation are realising this. Okay, not enough, but from my perspective a lot has been achieved. Seeing my grandparents generation who were largely illiterate, and seeing youngsters today reading Gurbani and ithihaasic texts and translating and discussing them is a great thing. Seeing a lot of social issues finally being addressed is a great thing too. Yeah, people still stick their heads in the sand like ostriches, but slowly and steadily we'll change that.

agree wiv u it is a good thing but by comfort my point was more about life overall i.e. being weak in rehit..or picking and choosing what we like/dislike to suit us like a 'pick n mix' from a sweet shop e.g. being spiritual but not training - cuz its more effort..or driving a flash, expensive car instead of a banger - cuz its easier...or living in a bigger home - cuz it looks nicer...

very few if any will practice miri-piri equally..or settle for a cheap, small runaround that does the job for the family...or buy a simple home that suits everyones needs...

not everyone inc. amritdhari youth seems to acknowledge or desire a simple life...

 

[dallysingh101]

1 hour ago, GuestSingh said:

age plays a huge role...

the eldest are more cautious by nature since culture/parents/family expect us to set a good example and lead others on the right path...so this actually makes em more thoughtful/intelligent cuz they gotta think more about personal choices/habits, decisions and self-image etc. whereas the younger brats are given more freedom with less burden...so although the eldest are forced to suppress their emotions and not be who we really are or wanna be in life by taking different paths e.g. education over creativity...we tend to be more capable of thinking 'outside the box' and seeing the 'bigger picture' i.e. sikhi over maya since the process happens over so many years...

but there can be exceptions e.g. the eldest can become the opposite later in life as can the youngest...but sometimes theyre able to keep the good stuff and strike a bit of a balance...again its  experiences/exposures/personality/variables big or small not forgetting more importantly waheguru da hukam.

I think it may be more complicated than that. But I do get (as the youngest) that by the time you are arrive parents/a parent will have lost all previous caution, and the younger ones can run wild. Not least of all because the parents have much more heads to parents and have to split their time,  whereas the oldest ones got more attention/focus. Also,  younger siblings can watch the older ones and think, I don't want to be suppressed like that - and act more defiantly as a consequence. 

But all manner of factors can kick in, not least of all biological predispositions.  And in the end Waheguru's hukam can twist any perceived heuristics about sibling orders as you mentioned. 

 

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mine was the opposite..already mentioned my story on here in a previous post but basically after meeting a pleasant gursikh, there was a strong desire to research my identity/culture..then after spending time with a chrisitian my belief was that 'god' is what was missing from my life..then reading the history, the saakhia of countless shaheeda..that was the wake-up call that changed my life...

That's a blessing. How many people fall into some other slippery path because of parental indifference. On the flipside, I've known so many guys from 'stand-up' pillar of the community, respectable Amritdhari backgrounds, who've been completely scandalous too, addicts, seeing hookers and whatnot, so again it ain't ever a simple trajectory.

Sometimes wild young ones get it out of their system when young and get more reserved when older, and conversely conservative, pious ones go off the rails when older. 

You're blessed if you've got a genuine heartfelt connection to this thing. We all are, even with our flaws (and I know I have many  - and I'm not being humble here, just acknowledging reality). As Guru ji says: 

Aap vichorayaa, aap milieyaa. 'They themselves disconnect, they themselves join' us to this thing. 

 

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only just beginning to realise and understand the importance of this myself after recently moving away from home...the time and space away from the bad memories is priceless...it really does help to understand, accept and overcome so many things - my own state of mental health has improved from several months ago...

Good to hear! I was stuck in it for a LONG time. Getting away is so important for development, otherwise it just becomes a norm to be stuck in some dysfunctional patterns and it's nigh on impossible to see through it. Especially with people in close proximity triggering each other, with honed button pressing skills all the time....

 

2 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

yh bro 3rd gen.

my guess is both each having a violent and dominant father who forced em to do what they didnt wanna do e.g. speaking panjabi at home, eating 'indian' food everyday etc. which mustve made em resent it plus other cultural norms that conflicted with growing up in western society..then theres the common lack of education/knowledge on dharam - my dad is actually panjabi hindu and my mom sikh but that had no effect on my thinking/being since they rarely talked about either ...suppose all thats gonna make anyone westernised?

I have a few siblings just like this. They don't pass on anything to their kids and seriously resent anyone else (like uncles) trying to, although they try and hide this.  

 

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agree wiv u it is a good thing but by comfort my point was more about life overall i.e. being weak in rehit..or picking and choosing what we like/dislike to suit us like a 'pick n mix' from a sweet shop e.g. being spiritual but not training - cuz its more effort..or driving a flash, expensive car instead of a banger - cuz its easier...or living in a bigger home - cuz it looks nicer...

very few if any will practice miri-piri equally..or settle for a cheap, small runaround that does the job for the family...or buy a simple home that suits everyones needs...

not everyone inc. amritdhari youth seems to acknowledge or desire a simple life...

 

I think some people will always struggle with rehat, and that comes from an overall difficulty with that type of discipline in itself. I think nihungs used to jokingly call such people 'kutcha billa' or 'raw tom-cat'. lol But then you do get many who are punctilious in their rehat but do not seem to give a single toss about the welfare of the panth  in relation to its more weaker or struggling members. All that ni-taanayaan da taan, ni-oahtiaan de oaht, ni-aarsrayaan da aas stuff just seems to fly over their heads. So rehat is pukkah but any humdhardhee (or empathy) for others is completely missing. 

I get what you're saying about a simple life not being desired by all. But let's be frank, it's all that mental conditioning about ostentatious displays of status that plays such a big part of our culture right now that takes precedence. That's not to say that sardars of old didn't do roughly similar things as power moves - but they made sure they put back into the community and strengthened the community. Maharajah Ranjit Singh is an example of this. I read a really old report about indigenous education systems in Panjab under the Sikh kingdom (written in the late 1800s so it was in living memory of the time), and it was observed that in amongst all the hard-edged political power moves, and freebooting sardars indulged in, they would go out of their ways to put back in the community by competing with each other in opening up quality schools for youngsters with some of the wealth they accumulated; or patronise talented writers, artists etc. Where do you see that now with all our super-rich brethren? lol

 

[Guest GuestSingh]

39 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think it may be more complicated than that. But I do get (as the youngest) that by the time you are arrive parents/a parent will have lost all previous caution, and the younger ones can run wild. Not least of all because the parents have much more heads to parents and have to split their time,  whereas the oldest ones got more attention/focus. Also,  younger siblings can watch the older ones and think, I don't want to be suppressed like that - and act more defiantly as a consequence. 

But all manner of factors can kick in, not least of all biological predispositions.  And in the end Waheguru's hukam can twist any perceived heuristics about sibling orders as you mentioned. 

'biological predispositions' - thats what was meant by 'variables' etc. u said it better.

That's a blessing. How many people fall into some other slippery path because of parental indifference. On the flipside, I've known so many guys from 'stand-up' pillar of the community, respectable Amritdhari backgrounds, who've been completely scandalous too, addicts, seeing hookers and whatnot, so again it ain't ever a simple trajectory.

finding that balance between 'discipline' and 'freedom' is the key - but far easier said than done.

Sometimes wild young ones get it out of their system when young and get more reserved when older, and conversely conservative, pious ones go off the rails when older. 

You're blessed if you've got a genuine heartfelt connection to this thing. We all are, even with our flaws (and I know I have many  - and I'm not being humble here, just acknowledging reality). As Guru ji says: 

Aap vichorayaa, aap milieyaa. 'They themselves disconnect, they themselves join' us to this thing.

in my mind guru sahib selects their own sikh and gives em their own seva - question is does that sikh realise their mission and if so, are they capable of achieving it in this world?

I have a few siblings just like this. They don't pass on anything to their kids and seriously resent anyone else (like uncles) trying to, although they try and hide this.  

those same folk then try to enforce/impose their own western, liberal and secular thinking/beliefs on others...perhaps to desperately prove a point to others that their choice was correct and not an odd one...or even outta rebellion...

seen it in my own family - its hypocritical but they dont see it that way and they dont care either. 

I think some people will always struggle with rehat, and that comes from an overall difficulty with that type of discipline in itself. I think nihungs used to jokingly call such people 'kutcha billa' or 'raw tom-cat'. lol But then you do get many who are punctilious in their rehat but do not seem to give a single toss about the welfare of the panth  in relation to its more weaker or struggling members. All that ni-taanayaan da taan, ni-oahtiaan de oaht, ni-aarsrayaan da aas stuff just seems to fly over their heads. So rehat is pukkah but any humdhardhee (or empathy) for others is completely missing.

its a game of love - how much do we love our guru?

its not something any of us wanna be asked but fact is we just aint good enough anymore compared to those in gurujis time - so many of us (inc. myself) struggle with so many things...

we can only ask for strength and mercy on our weak minds

I get what you're saying about a simple life not being desired by all. But let's be frank, it's all that mental conditioning about ostentatious displays of status that plays such a big part of our culture right now that takes precedence. That's not to say that sardars of old didn't do roughly similar things as power moves - but they made sure they put back into the community and strengthened the community. Maharajah Ranjit Singh is an example of this. I read a really old report about indigenous education systems in Panjab under the Sikh kingdom (written in the late 1800s so it was in living memory of the time), and it was observed that in amongst all the hard-edged political power moves, and freebooting sardars indulged in, they would go out of their ways to put back in the community by competing with each other in opening up quality schools for youngsters with some of the wealth they accumulated; or patronise talented writers, artists etc. Where do you see that now with all our super-rich brethren? lol

have you got the link to that article? was it online?

it sounds plausible if u consider the historical account written by whitey who said panjab was very well educated place (most educated on earth?) and way ahead of any western 'enlightenment'...until his lot came along and ruined everything - as usual.

 

[dallysingh101]

On 2/23/2019 at 10:18 PM, GuestSingh said:

finding that balance between 'discipline' and 'freedom' is the key - but far easier said than done.

I think we've been given some tools to help us in this. I've always found Akaal Ustat powerful in helping to prevent us falling into the dogma and narrow mindedness that passes for discipline in some circles amongst our people. Tva Prasaad also helps.  

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those same folk then try to enforce/impose their own western, liberal and secular thinking/beliefs on others...perhaps to desperately prove a point to others that their choice was correct and not an odd one...or even outta rebellion...

seen it in my own family - its hypocritical but they dont see it that way and they dont care either. 

 

You know what you've really brought home to me is how negative experiences through association with a harsh figure, or being compelled into religion often backfires on parents. Sometimes I wonder how some of the more (to my mind) narrow minded youngsters of today who seem excessively proud of their dogmatic approach to Sikhi and seem completely oblivious to the fact that their family closeting and conservatism means that they really don't have much worldly experience, I wonder how this will affect their children's relationship with their heritage?

If I zoom back to many decades ago when I was just a little boy, I can recall how my moms would call us up when she was finishing her rehras, and make us sing along with her. It was very strict. lol

Now I didn't mind for some reason, it just seemed like singing to me, and my memory isn't too bad so I could learn it relatively quickly. But I distinctly remember looking at one of my brothers whilst doing this, and seeing a look of complete bafflement and resentment in his eyes as he was doing this. lol This attitude stuck and he is a complete coconut today. 

On 2/23/2019 at 10:18 PM, GuestSingh said:

its a game of love - how much do we love our guru?

its not something any of us wanna be asked but fact is we just aint good enough anymore compared to those in gurujis time - so many of us (inc. myself) struggle with so many things...

we can only ask for strength and mercy on our weak minds

I realise now, this is all about love. Actually 'tough love'. Something that requires a lot from us. Don't think people didn't struggle in Guru ji's time either though. Plenty of examples of that in old literature. Chaali mukte for example. 

 

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have you got the link to that article? was it online?

it sounds plausible if u consider the historical account written by whitey who said panjab was very well educated place (most educated on earth?) and way ahead of any western 'enlightenment'...until his lot came along and ruined everything - as usual.

 

 

Here's some articles you might want to read:

https://www.dawn.com/news/577448

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/12683-the-prebritish-annexation-educational-system-in-the-panjab/

 

It's good you asked for sources. Made me dig up and stick an important source on my scribd:

https://www.scribd.com/document/400476218/History-of-indigenous-education-in-the-Panjab-By-G-W-Leitner-first-published-in-1883

 

 

[Guest GuestSingh]

22 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know what you've really brought home to me is how negative experiences through association with a harsh figure, or being compelled into religion often backfires on parents. Sometimes I wonder how some of the more (to my mind) narrow minded youngsters of today who seem excessively proud of their dogmatic approach to Sikhi and seem completely oblivious to the fact that their family closeting and conservatism means that they really don't have much worldly experience, I wonder how this will affect their children's relationship with their heritage?

no idea...my answers gonna be simple...maybe those youngsters will just learn later in life so their kids wont be completely 'cut off' from reality? or maybe its gonna be more of the same we see today? tame/meek kids being bullied/teased and learning the hard way?

good times > weak men > bad times > strong men > good times - its a perpetuating cycle....

but everyones different and a 'one size' fits all approach never works - this goes back to what we were discussing earlier about different personalities and age...in my case, the eldest having to live up to an image within a violent and depressing childhood..being constantly belittled to the point of being made to feel weak and little and believing it...not able to really express themselves etc.

sometimes there really is no better way than learning the hard way.

If I zoom back to many decades ago when I was just a little boy, I can recall how my moms would call us up when she was finishing her rehras, and make us sing along with her. It was very strict. lol

Now I didn't mind for some reason, it just seemed like singing to me, and my memory isn't too bad so I could learn it relatively quickly. But I distinctly remember looking at one of my brothers whilst doing this, and seeing a look of complete bafflement and resentment in his eyes as he was doing this. lol This attitude stuck and he is a complete coconut today. 

seems like the seed was sown in u early...but then u can never really tell with a kid.

and youve bought back some memories...my only recollection of paath as a kid was walking to my parnana and parnanis house after school and sitting under the table while they listened on a crackly cassette player - no-one was allowed to speak..even as a kid this still felt soothing, an escape from home for a short while and feeling a bit safe at the same time - not just when under the table but whenever wed all have to sit down together and keep quiet...dont remember anyone complaining but then no-one could with a strict male elder...

I realise now, this is all about love. Actually 'tough love'. Something that requires a lot from us. Don't think people didn't struggle in Guru ji's time either though. Plenty of examples of that in old literature. Chaali mukte for example. 

true - a path 'sharper than a sword' and 'finer than a hair'...

u could argue it requires everything if we truly consider whats required but thats just my opinion.

Here's some articles you might want to read:

https://www.dawn.com/news/577448

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/12683-the-prebritish-annexation-educational-system-in-the-panjab/

It's good you asked for sources. Made me dig up and stick an important source on my scribd:

https://www.scribd.com/document/400476218/History-of-indigenous-education-in-the-Panjab-By-G-W-Leitner-first-published-in-1883

thanks - this was the historical account that was referred to in my previous post so will definitely check em out.

 

[dallysingh101]

19 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

no idea...my answers gonna be simple...maybe those youngsters will just learn later in life so their kids wont be completely 'cut off' from reality? or maybe its gonna be more of the same we see today? tame/meek kids being bullied/teased and learning the hard way?

good times > weak men > bad times > strong men > good times - its a perpetuating cycle....

Nah, I think a lot of these kids grow up to be adults who go that extra mile to avoid any threatening reality. Then they squeeze themselves in positions of power (usually because they threaten no one in authority and are considered malleable and useful) and then they perpetuate the whole problem again with their kids. lol

That's a good conceptional cycle you pointed out above. The question is whether we are in good times, or bad in the UK and whether we can get a consensus on that with the wider community?  

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but everyones different and a 'one size' fits all approach never works - this goes back to what we were discussing earlier about different personalities and age...in my case, the eldest having to live up to an image within a violent and depressing childhood..being constantly belittled to the point of being made to feel weak and little and believing it...not able to really express themselves etc.

sometimes there really is no better way than learning the hard way.

 

You know I met a 70 year old gora about 6 months ago at work (who was surprisingly agile and nimble?!??) and he told me that his old man was constantly belittling him growing up, psychologically abusive and physically abusive to his mom. (What was more shocking to me was when he told me that his old man was still alive!! 90 years + old!). So this might have been more common than we think and not just something that effects one type of culture). 

That old man told me that when he was growing up, if he asked his dad about his grandad - the old man would go quiet and never talk. So we sort of deduced that his father was probably replicating behaviour that he himself had experienced/witnessed growing up, and remember his father was a negative experience for him hence the silence. Sometimes this type of dysfunction perpetuates itself across generations. BUT, I think when it hits someone with some intelligence and reflective ability (which not everyone has), they can break that cycle. That's where maybe you and me may be lucky? In psychology they call these things 'protective factors'  - things that can protect you from what they call 'atypical development'. Simran really helps too from my experience, but this is even accepted by science now anyway with all their 'mindfulness' stuff (straight rip off of eastern meditation techniques in my opinion). 

Let Sikhi heal you up. 

 

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seems like the seed was sown in u early...but then u can never really tell with a kid.

and youve bought back some memories...my only recollection of paath as a kid was walking to my parnana and parnanis house after school and sitting under the table while they listened on a crackly cassette player - no-one was allowed to speak..even as a kid this still felt soothing, an escape from home for a short while and feeling a bit safe at the same time - not just when under the table but whenever wed all have to sit down together and keep quiet...dont remember anyone complaining but then no-one could with a strict male elder...

 

Like you say, you can never tell with children. Some of my siblings had similar experiences as me, and totally resent their heritage. 

It's good you have a relationship with paat that is  connected to stability and peace. That will carry you a long way. I also have a similar connection I guess through Gurdwaras. All that tumult at home often made me hit the street when I was younger (out of the frying pan into the fire!!!), and my part of town at that time was (on reflection) very dark, dangerous and threatening (still can be). So when I was in Gurdwaras playing around, I felt safer than normal. No kids went to Gurdwaras to learn in my days. No one knew what was being said and we'd all charge about about playing - often upsetting some olders. Different times. But it was like a playground at times. But sometimes some really harsh uncle/auntie would very sternly tell you off. lol

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thanks - this was the historical account that was referred to in my previous post so will definitely check em out.

 

No problem. At some point I might try and collate all the sections relevant and interesting to Sikhs and stick them in one document. Getting lazy. lol

[Guest GuestSingh]

12 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Nah, I think a lot of these kids grow up to be adults who go that extra mile to avoid any threatening reality. Then they squeeze themselves in positions of power (usually because they threaten no one in authority and are considered malleable and useful) and then they perpetuate the whole problem again with their kids. lol

thats actually true...suppose the question is will they perpetuate it in the same way they experienced or, perhaps unknowingly, more forcefully? cuz they believe it worked for em so any other method that deviates from that path will lessen their survival, cause unnecessary disruption, affect health/wealth in the family maybe? cuz no way of thinking can ever be the same without what weve already discussed....

That's a good conceptional cycle you pointed out above. The question is whether we are in good times, or bad in the UK and whether we can get a consensus on that with the wider community?  

imo we seem to have a decent mixture, not so much balance atm, between more spiritually-inclined and more martially-inclined youth so the answer would have to be both? we already know theres more awareness and resources about sikhi now and sikh tv channels, social media etc. are increasing awareness about taboo issues...but ultimately if it aint happening in ur home then theres little reason to care otherwise..and then not everyone wants to connect to a higher power either cuz they find it 'boring' or have no need or even desire to do it when completely absorbed in maya....

yh we can reach out to em, the wider community, but that can only go so far too - people just wanna be left alone and live their own life..they dont care about the welfare of the 

You know I met a 70 year old gora about 6 months ago at work (who was surprisingly agile and nimble?!??) and he told me that his old man was constantly belittling him growing up, psychologically abusive and physically abusive to his mom. (What was more shocking to me was when he told me that his old man was still alive!! 90 years + old!). So this might have been more common than we think and not just something that effects one type of culture).

That old man told me that when he was growing up, if he asked his dad about his grandad - the old man would go quiet and never talk. So we sort of deduced that his father was probably replicating behaviour that he himself had experienced/witnessed growing up, and remember his father was a negative experience for him hence the silence. Sometimes this type of dysfunction perpetuates itself across generations. BUT, I think when it hits someone with some intelligence and reflective ability (which not everyone has), they can break that cycle. That's where maybe you and me may be lucky? In psychology they call these things 'protective factors'  - things that can protect you from what they call 'atypical development'. Simran really helps too from my experience, but this is even accepted by science now anyway with all their 'mindfulness' stuff (straight rip off of eastern meditation techniques in my opinion).

chitteh even had the nerve to file a patent for yoga and lots of otha stuff thats always been free to eastern society...

Let Sikhi heal you up. 

sikhi is the only thing that does work...cbt never made a difference to my wellbeing or change my thinking/behaviour.

guru sahib is the best father and teacher we could ever ask for in life.

Like you say, you can never tell with children. Some of my siblings had similar experiences as me, and totally resent their heritage.

mine too.

It's good you have a relationship with paat that is  connected to stability and peace. That will carry you a long way. I also have a similar connection I guess through Gurdwaras. All that tumult at home often made me hit the street when I was younger (out of the frying pan into the fire!!!), and my part of town at that time was (on reflection) very dark, dangerous and threatening (still can be). So when I was in Gurdwaras playing around, I felt safer than normal.

interesting u say that...what was it about the gurughar that made u feel like that? why not just safe? was it just protection from the outside world or some spiritual element that was maybe trying to connect wiv u? did u feel anything else when u would go?

No kids went to Gurdwaras to learn in my days. No one knew what was being said and we'd all charge about about playing - often upsetting some olders. Different times. But it was like a playground at times. But sometimes some really harsh uncle/auntie would very sternly tell you off. lol

No problem. At some point I might try and collate all the sections relevant and interesting to Sikhs and stick them in one document. Getting lazy. lol

if u could upload some more stuff if /when u have it then that would also be appreciated.

keep up the gd seva bro....