CAN GURU MAKE US DO SOMETHING THAT WE DIDNT INTENDED TO ?

[Guest guest]

15 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

So where's the divine justice? Mercy is all good and well for the sinner, but where's the justice for the aggrieved?

As I said, the translation is very poor. I'm currently looking for a Punjabi version because I'm doubtful about some of the things I'm reading.

 

theres law of karma- which is like a law in nature.  

but a saint does not want retribution.  they forgive their enemies ("khima").  they have not bad feeling to any one ("nirvair") and all wellwishers of everyone ("sarbat da bhalla").  saints don't have enemies.    and sainthood is everyone's innate, pure nature.

afterall, if everything is God's will, who you going to hate?

so imo, its about getting rid of one's own ignorance, rather than demanding justice.  

[MisterrSingh]

7 hours ago, Guest guest said:

theres law of karma- which is like a law in nature.  

but a saint does not want retribution.  they forgive their enemies ("khima").  they have not bad feeling to any one ("nirvair") and all wellwishers of everyone ("sarbat da bhalla").  saints don't have enemies.    and sainthood is everyone's innate, pure nature.

afterall, if everything is God's will, who you going to hate?

so imo, its about getting rid of one's own ignorance, rather than demanding justice.  

Justice is not retribution or prone to emotion. You've mistakenly conflated two entirely unique concepts. It's a restorative act; a natural reply to the evil of the sin; of restoring balance. There is no emotion in justice. Revenge, yes, but not in justice.

Yes, we may be in no position to demand justice; it's application may be entirely at the discretion of the Creator, but if you're suggesting that it doesn't exist; that all that matters is the salvation of the sinner, then I'm afraid that truly is the definition of an unjust system.

Gangu; the mahants burned alive for stealing the sangat's charaava; the city and the occupants of Sirhind; Indira, etc. Did they not deserve mercy?

[Amit12]

9 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Japji?

Quote ?

Someone is failing in a particular subject, they are not even giving it their 100%, can we call it HUKAM ? GOD's BhaaNa ?

[Amit12]

2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Justice is not retribution or prone to emotion. You've mistakenly conflated two entirely unique concepts. It's a restorative act; a natural reply to the evil of the sin; of restoring balance. There is no emotion in justice. Revenge, yes, but not in justice.

Yes, we may be in no position to demand justice; it's application may be entirely at the discretion of the Creator, but if you're suggesting that it doesn't exist; that all that matters is the salvation of the sinner, then I'm afraid that truly is the definition of an unjust system.

Gangu; the mahants burned alive for stealing the sangat's charaava; the city and the occupants of Sirhind; Indira, etc. Did they not deserve mercy?

Valid point

[harsharan000]

37 minutes ago, Amit12 said:

Quote ?

Someone is failing in a particular subject, they are not even giving it their 100%, can we call it HUKAM ? GOD's BhaaNa ?

Hukum or God´s Bhaana is also the  current  flow of Nature.

For example if you sow carrots, you will not get tomatoes or apples for example.

So in that sense according to His Hukum, everything runs naturally.

Then also, if in your past you have done karmas to fail in any particular subject or any other losses or gains, then that will happen as a consequence of something, not all of a sudden or because someone wants deliberately to harm or favour you.

His Hukum is not like that.

He created the creation, and then made it run under laws of Nature or call it Hukum, and then He sat aside absorbed in Himself Shabad swaroop, yet He is omnipresent, and omnipotent.

The thing is, He never interferes with the course of Nature, unlike we corrupt human beings, trying to adjust everything to our limited perspectives.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

[Guest Guest]

On 2/21/2019 at 8:23 AM, Guest Genocide ISNT Hukum said:

Their excuse will be that the Pakistani Punajbi's and Indira Gandhi were carrying out "God's orders"

Baba Nanak ascribed Babur's massacre to Gods will.

 

[Guest guest]

16 hours ago, Amit12 said:

Quote ?

Someone is failing in a particular subject, they are not even giving it their 100%, can we call it HUKAM ? GOD's BhaaNa ?

last four lines of verse 26.  last three lines of verse 27.  verse 33.

yes because they are functioning according to the buddhi (level of wisdom) bestowed on them by God.

above is per my understanding.  maybe i'm wrong?

[Guest guest]

15 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

Hukum or God´s Bhaana is also the  current  flow of Nature.

For example if you sow carrots, you will not get tomatoes or apples for example....

The thing is, He never interferes with the course of Nature, unlike we corrupt human beings, trying to adjust everything to our limited perspectives.

 

 

nice post, but I disagree with some points.

scientific laws are a different kind of rule (hukam) to the Hukam with a capital 'H'.  From Japji:

Hukmī hovan ākār hukam na kahi▫ā jā▫ī. 

^which I understand to mean 'the hukam (laws) by which forms take shape (e.g. science) cannot be called The Hukam (i.e. its a different category).

Also I disagree when you say the He never interferes with the course of nature.  In SGGS it says He destroys sins, Naam cures illnesses, He protects His Bhagats from attack (e.g. Bhagat Prahlad), He made a riverflow backwards, protected Bhagat Kabir from being murdered by elephants.

[Guest guest]

18 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Justice is not retribution or prone to emotion. You've mistakenly conflated two entirely unique concepts. It's a restorative act; a natural reply to the evil of the sin; of restoring balance. There is no emotion in justice. Revenge, yes, but not in justice.

Yes, we may be in no position to demand justice; it's application may be entirely at the discretion of the Creator, but if you're suggesting that it doesn't exist; that all that matters is the salvation of the sinner, then I'm afraid that truly is the definition of an unjust system.

Gangu; the mahants burned alive for stealing the sangat's charaava; the city and the occupants of Sirhind; Indira, etc. Did they not deserve mercy?

i can understand this view.  but how do you define justice?  

like I said thats the law of karma. i would say- would you torture a child that unknowingly did wrong?  no.  but would the child who puts their own fingers into fire get burnt fingers due to their own action?  yes.    it is like that.  thats not His personal doing, it's a law in his creation.  e.g. I think that Banda Bahadur ascribed his capture and torture to his previous bad karams.

look at Chaupai paath.  Guru ji asks for protection and destruction of enemies (in sense of people out to attack him).  He doesn't request justice, as you describe it, if i recall correctly.

what is the equivalent word for justice in Gurbani? (I am asking sincerely).

 

[harsharan000]

On 2/23/2019 at 1:52 AM, Guest guest said:

nice post, but I disagree with some points.

scientific laws are a different kind of rule (hukam) to the Hukam with a capital 'H'.  From Japji:

Hukmī hovan ākār hukam na kahi▫ā jā▫ī. 

^which I understand to mean 'the hukam (laws) by which forms take shape (e.g. science) cannot be called The Hukam (i.e. its a different category).

Also I disagree when you say the He never interferes with the course of nature.  In SGGS it says He destroys sins, Naam cures illnesses, He protects His Bhagats from attack (e.g. Bhagat Prahlad), He made a riverflow backwards, protected Bhagat Kabir from being murdered by elephants.

 

Brother or sister, Guest guest Jee.

 

If science exists, is it not more than probable, that even those scientifics laws which you mention, are part of His Hukum?

 

Or is it, that any other entities made those scientifc laws?

 

I do not see any diffrences. It is only we are limited and short sighted, thus we limit and say scientific laws, but, in the end, all  those  countless universes, levels of consciousness, whether seen or unseen, work under the natural laws for their natural flow.

 

For example, the traffic signals/rules/regulations or call it laws, if the traffic respects them, evrything runs smoothly, if not, it may cause horrilbe accidents and painful consequences.

 

The force of gravity is not the same here on the earth as per  on the moon or jupiter.

 

For example, the nature of the fire is to give warmth and light, so if that is His Hukum for fire, fire can never give you coolness or darkness. We can not and should not mix things as same for all different aspects, each thing at it,s own place.

 

It is per Hukum also, the body, mind and our life circumstances which we  get, are also per Hukum, in the form of karmas, which clearlly says:  aapay beejay aapay khae.

 

So you see everything works under His Hukum. Ad if He is Perfect, what the need to rectify for Him?  He makes no mistakes.

 

You see, He is so Perfect,  that He can not go against His own established laws or Hukum.

 

If that was the case, why did He come as human beings, respecting the laws of His Nature, by having parents, and born from a womb of a mother, when He came as Guru Sahiban?

 

Why did  Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj had to suffer horrible attrocities at the hands of the most heartless  and bloody foolish people? Why did He not use His powers to avoid them and punish them?

 

Why did  Ninth Patshahee, passed away as He did, was He not Akal Purukh Himself, why did he not save Himself?

 

Why save some as you mention above, and not His human incarnations as Guru Sahiban?  Why that discrimination?

 

The answer is, are you sure it was  Akal Purukh who reverted the  riverflow, or protected Prahlad and not any other incarnation of the hindu trinity?

 

Or when you  say, he saved Bhagat Kabir from the elephants? Are you sure, it was Kabir Jee and not  the Buddha who was saved from the mad elephant?

 

It could very well be Vishnu Jee,  who that did for his devotees and not Wahiguru Himself.

 

Bahamvadee has deeply polluted our sense of perceiving sikhee, so we take such things as powers displyed by Wahiguru, when that is not the case.

 

You may find similarities among all the several incarnations of Vishnu Jee, but the path, the teachings, sikhshaa, given to us sikhs by Guru  Sahiban, has no comparison  in any way to other faiths and divinities.

 

Sikhee is the simplest path in treading, yet the highest in goals.

 

For we have no trinities nor any  incarnations as our goals, nor their realms, but, He Wahiguru Akal Purukh Himself, that also by His apaar grace.

 

Other deties display  miraculous powers , weapons, fly in chariots, change their outer appearances, etc ... lay down on a thousand faced snake in a ocean of milk, have a wife massaging his feet and so on, with four arms, their sons, and their spouses, in a summary, a big whole number of these spiritual entities working in their respective realms.

 

And all this goes against what First Patshahee said about that Supreme Being:

 

Ik Oankar: Only One Lord, who is Nirankar, formless.

 

No wives, no children, no daughters in law, nothing of that sort.

 

There where He is, only He exist, and whosoever reaches there by His grace, becomes one with Him without any distinction.

 

Then also, whenever Wahiguru comes here as human beings, comes as simple human beings, though internally, they are He Himself.

 

I almost forgot, Guru Jee came as Guru Sahiban, as normal ordinary human beings, but unlike them, their drishtee is full of mercy and love , which irradiates from them, that is why they are so beautiful and attractive,  for they have the Light of Wahiguru in them.

 

They never did anything to benefit themselves or impress anyone, their humility, their namrata was such, that First Patshahee called Himself, as lalaa golaa or das also....

 

Then when you say: He destroys sins ..... 

 

It is just but normal and natural as when you rub a rusted piece of iron against a stone, that its rust is removed.

 

In a similar way, when we rub our mind against the soap of  Nam, all our sins are washed away.

 

So yes in that way, our sins are cleansed, but not that we stand still and pray, and He washes our sins just like that....

 

No that is  not like that...

 

His works are beyond our intellect and understanding.We can somehow understand a bit and benefit ourselves, by paying attention to our beloved Guru Sahiban and by engaing in veechar on their Sat Bachan in the Gurbani, and then by following it implicitly.

 

Guest guest jee, I respect your views, for that is also by His Hukum that you have that understanding, like anybody else also.

 

But that much I will also say, there is no comparison  of any other dharams to sikhee, which is by far the highest, that also, I proclaim not as sikh, but as an ordinary human being, for sikhee is a universal path  for all of His lovers, irrespective of caste, class, colors, creed or genders...

 

Stay blessed.

 

Sat Sree Akal