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9 minutes ago, FreshMind13 said:

The rush was from Gurcharan Singh Tohra who asked Purewal to make the calendar after seeing is work on converting Bikrami dates I believe.

Maybe someone else can elaborate more.

That's a possibility. If that's the case, it's another example of throwing the Panth into chaos for, really, nothing.

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I have created a table of the dates in various calendars.

Parkash Dates

Guru Sahib Bikrami Lunar Bikrami Solar Nanakshahi Julian Gregorian Weekday
Guru Nanak Dev Ji Katak Sudi 15 (Pooranmashi), 1526 BK 21 Katak, 1526 BK (Uses Lunar) October 20th, 1469 October 29th, 1469 Friday
Guru Angad Dev Ji Vaisakh Vadi 1, 1561 BK 5 Vaisakh, 1561 BK 5 Vaisakh, 36 NS March 31st, 1504 April 10th, 1504 Sunday
Guru Amar Das Ji Vaisakh Sudi 14, 1536 BK 9 Jeth, 1536 BK 9 Jeth, 11 NS May 5th, 1479 May 14th, 1479 Wednesday
Guru Ram Das Ji Katak Vadi 2, 1591 BK 25 Assu, 1591 BK 25 Assu, 66 NS September 24th, 1534 October 4th, 1534 Thursday
Guru Arjan Dev Ji Vaisakh Vadi 7, 1620 BK 19 Vaisakh, 1620 BK 19 Vaisakh, 95 NS April 15th, 1563 April 25th, 1563 Thursday
Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Harh Vadi 7, 1652 BK 21 Harh, 1652 BK 21 Harh, 127 NS June 19th, 1595 June 29th, 1595 Thursday
Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Magh Sudi 13, 1686 BK 19 Magh, 1686 BK 19 Magh, 161 NS January 16th, 1630 January 26th, 1630 Saturday
Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji Savan Vadi 10, 1713 BK 8 Savan, 1713 BK 8 Savan, 188 NS July 7th, 1656 July 17th, 1656 Monday
Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Vaisakh Vadi 5, 1678 BK 5 Vaisakh, 1678 BK 5 Vaisakh, 153 NS April 1st, 1621 April 11th, 1621 Sunday
Guru Gobind Singh Ji Poh Sudi 7, 1723 BK 23 Poh, 1723 BK 23 Poh, 198 NS December 22nd, 1666 January 1st, 1667 Saturday
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (First Parkash) Bhadon Sudi 1, 1661 BK 17 Bhadon, 1661 BK 17 Bhadon, 136 NS August 16th, 1604 August 26th, 1604 Thursday

Gurgaddi Dates

Guru Sahib Bikrami Lunar Bikrami Solar Nanakshahi Julian Gregorian Weekday
Guru Nanak Dev Ji (From Parkash) * * * * *
Guru Angad Dev Ji Assu Vadi 5, 1596 BK 4 Assu, 1596 BK 4 Assu, 71 NS September 3rd, 1539 September 13th, 1539 Wednesday
Guru Amar Das Ji Chet Sudi 4, 1609 BK 3 Vaisakh, 1609 BK 3 Vaisakh, 84 NS March 29th, 1552 April 8th, 1552 Tuesday
Guru Ram Das Ji Bhadon Sudi 15 (Pooranmashi), 1631 BK 2 Assu, 1631 BK 2 Assu, 106 NS September 1st, 1574 September 11th, 1574 Wednesday
Guru Arjan Dev Ji Bhadon Sudi 3, 1638 BK 2 Assu, 1638 BK 2 Assu, 113 NS September 1st, 1581 September 11th, 1581 Friday
Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Jeth Vadi 14, 1663 BK 28 Jeth, 1663 BK 28 Jeth, 138 NS May 25th, 1606 June 4th, 1606 Sunday
Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Chet Vadi 15 (Massia), 1701 BK 1 Chet, 1701 BK 1 Chet, 176 NS February 27th, 1644 March 8th, 1644 Tuesday
Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji Katak Vadi 9, 1718 BK 6 Katak, 1718 BK 6 Katak, 193 NS October 6th, 1661 October 16th, 1661 Sunday
Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Chet Sudi 14, 1721 BK 3 Vaisakh, 1721 BK 3 Vaisakh, 196 NS March 30th, 1664 April 9th, 1664 Wednesday
Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maghar Sudi 5, 1732 BK 11 Maghar, 1732 BK 11 Maghar, 207 NS November 11th, 1675 November 21st, 1675 Thursday
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Katak Sudi 4, 1765 BK 6 Katak, 1765 BK 6 Katak, 240 NS October 6th, 1708 October 17th, 1708 Wednesday

Joti Jot Dates

Guru Sahib Bikrami Lunar Bikrami Solar Nanakshahi Julian Gregorian Weekday
Guru Nanak Dev Ji Assu Vadi 10, 1596 BK 8 Assu, 1596 BK 8 Assu, 71 NS September 7th, 1539 September 17th, 1539 Sunday
Guru Angad Dev Ji Chet Sudi 4, 1609 BK 3 Vaisakh, 1609 BK 3 Vaisakh, 84 NS March 29th, 1552 April 8th, 1552 Tuesday
Guru Amar Das Ji Bhadon Sudi 15 (Pooranmashi), 1631 BK 2 Assu, 1631 BK 2 Assu, 106 NS September 1st, 1574 September 11th, 1574 Wednesday
Guru Ram Das Ji Bhadon Sudi 3, 1638 BK 2 Assu, 1638 BK 2 Assu, 113 NS September 1st, 1581 September 11th, 1581 Friday
Guru Arjan Dev Ji Jeth Sudi 4, 1663 BK 2 Harh, 1663 BK 2 Harh, 138 NS May 30th, 1606 June 9th, 1606 Friday
Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Chet Sudi 5, 1701 BK (Adhik Month/Mal Maas) 6 Chet, 1701 BK 6 Chet, 176 NS March 3rd, 1644 March 13th, 1644 Sunday
Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Katak Vadi 9, 1718 BK 6 Katak, 1718 BK 6 Katak, 193 NS October 6th, 1661 October 16th, 1661 Sunday
Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji Chet Sudi 14, 1721 BK 3 Vaisakh, 1721 BK 3 Vaisakh, 196 NS March 30th, 1664 April 9th, 1664 Wednesday
Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maghar Sudi 5, 1732 BK 11 Maghar, 1732 BK 11 Maghar, 207 NS November 11th, 1675 November 21st, 1675 Thursday
Guru Gobind Singh Ji Katak Sudi 5, 1765 BK 7 Katak, 1765 BK 7 Katak, 240 NS October 7th, 1708 October 18th, 1708 Thursday

Other Dates

Event Bikrami Lunar Bikrami Solar Nanakshahi Julian Gregorian Weekday
Creation of Khalsa N/A 1 Vaisakh, 1756 BK 1 Vaisakh, 231 NS March 29th, 1699 April 8th, 1699 Wednesday
Shaheedi Elder Sahibzaade N/A 8 Poh, 1761 BK 8 Poh, 236 NS December 7th, 1704 December 18th, 1704 Thursday
Shaheedi Younger Sahibzaade N/A 13 Poh, 1761 BK 13 Poh, 236 NS December 12th, 1704 December 23rd, 1704 Tuesday
Completion of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Bhadon Vadi 3, 1763 BK 15 Bhadon, 1763 BK 15 Bhadon, 238 NS August 15th, 1706 August 26th, 1706 Thursday
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2 hours ago, FreshMind13 said:

I'm not going to reply to the emotional and personal attacks, keeping it strictly on the technicalities.

Purewal never fixed the date to January 5th.

They are not personal attacks.  You were trying to be deceiving and I called you out on it.  

Purewal did not fix the date? This right here tells me you don't know anything about purewal calendar.  In purewal calendar the date was fixed for January 5th, just like Christmas lands on the 25th for the gregorian calendar. He wanted to simplify the calendar and in doing so he did not follow the correct calculation.  Col. Surjit Singh nishan makes this point and purewal has no answer other than purewal is wrong.

You don't know what you are talking about, regardless of how much research or reading you have done on the matter.

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35 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

They are not personal attacks.  You were trying to be deceiving and I called you out on it.  

Purewal did not fix the date? This right here tells me you don't know anything about purewal calendar.  In purewal calendar the date was fixed for January 5th, just like Christmas lands on the 25th for the gregorian calendar. He wanted to simplify the calendar and in doing so he did not follow the correct calculation.  Col. Surjit Singh nishan makes this point and purewal has no answer other than purewal is wrong.

You don't know what you are talking about, regardless of how much research or reading you have done on the matter.

Did you even read my explanation where the January 5th date comes from? Stop making a strawman.

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9 minutes ago, FreshMind13 said:

Did you even read my explanation where the January 5th date comes from? Stop making a strawman.

Your explanation doesn't mean anything because purewal fixed the date to the 5th for every year to come.  This is a huge problem and you are purposely ignoring it.

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Everybody know that purewal fixed the infamous Jan 5th date. Despite of many chances given to him to hold meeting with col. Nishan Singh, he choose to hide. Stating that his health is not good. Few days later he  was jet flying to California. Upon confrontation he choose to hide behind his naive gullible sponsors.

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On 3/21/2019 at 1:24 AM, FreshMind13 said:

Yes. Purewal never assigned dates. He converted Bikrami Lunar Dates given in Sikh History into Bikrami Solar Dates.

 

A discussion I saw from Purewal's conversion of dates concerned the samvats written in Sri Dasme Patshahs Granth Sahib. Purewal concluded that the dates never matched in the actual days according to his calculations. He wrote the the days written were wrong. By his calculations Purewal gave the missionaries so much (false) ammunition to use against Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib. Anurag Singh showed that his calculations were wrong.

Do you think there may be a chance that Purewal has got some of his other dates wrong?

 

11 hours ago, FreshMind13 said:

1. Yes I am aware, Nanakshahi Sammat was first mentioned by Banda Singh Bahadur and then also mentioned by Giani Gian Singh and Bhai Vir Singh. This calendar used Bikrami Calendar calculations.

 

Nanakshahi samvat was the same calendar just starting from birth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Many religions have done this. It has no bearing on the details/accuracy of the calendar.

 

11 hours ago, FreshMind13 said:

I don't like saying the calendar Guru Sahib followed or favored by Purewal. The calendar is the same, but the calculations are different. Think of it as replacing the engine of a car.

 

The replacement has to be better. If you replace something with something that is inferior or even the same value, no advance has been made. Now concerning the current divisions in the Panth, I would say that the Purewal has filled a petrol engine with diesel.

 

8 hours ago, BhForce said:

Well, there's an additional consideration: That is that from his perspective, all that matters is getting his name into the pages of Sikh history. What he did not consider is what the wider Panth needs at this time and what benefit it provides at what cost.

That should have been something the Jathedars were supposed to consider, but I believe they did not. I believe the benefits are meager and the cost has been high (division in the Panth).

 

The calendar was the result of a phobia of everything related to "Hinduism." Throwing the label "Brahman/bahman/bipper" at others is just a way to denigrate them in the Panth. It is ploy used by missionaries. Anything that the missionaries support should be regarded as a lame duck by the Panth and not be worthy of supporting.

 

7 hours ago, FreshMind13 said:

The rush was from Gurcharan Singh Tohra who asked Purewal to make the calendar after seeing is work on converting Bikrami dates I believe.

Maybe someone else can elaborate more.

 

The rush was from Prof Manjit Singh jathedar of Sri Kesgarh Sahib. He was of the missionary thought and had close access to Tohra. It was Manjit Singh who arranged these meetings for the initial discussions of the Nanakshahi calendar.

 

7 hours ago, BhForce said:

That's a possibility. If that's the case, it's another example of throwing the Panth into chaos for, really, nothing.

 

It's kind of like removing the wheels of a car. Even after filling it with the wrong fuel.

 

9 hours ago, FreshMind13 said:

Purewal never fixed the date to January 5th. He converted the Lunar Bikrami Date (Poh Sudi 7, 1723 BK) to the Solar Bikrami Date (23 Poh, 1723 BK).

 

Purewal did eaxctly so. This was one of the things where he fall flat. He used the Bikrami date in 1999 on Khalsa Tricentary year, which gave it Jan 5th. If he had used it in the actual year of Guru Sahib's birth then it would not have been Jan 5th.

 

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On 3/22/2019 at 7:19 AM, chatanga1 said:

A discussion I saw from Purewal's conversion of dates concerned the samvats written in Sri Dasme Patshahs Granth Sahib. Purewal concluded that the dates never matched in the actual days according to his calculations. He wrote the the days written were wrong. By his calculations Purewal gave the missionaries so much (false) ammunition to use against Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib. Anurag Singh showed that his calculations were wrong.

Do you think there may be a chance that Purewal has got some of his other dates wrong?

Maybe Purewal got some dates wrong, he is human. But most of his dates are consistent with other books aside from him using Punjab sangrand rules.

From what I read, Purewal didn't even want to get his book published because his calculations didn't match the dates in Sri Dasam Granth. He has explained that here.

I was also banned from Anurag Singh's facebook comments because I proved him wrong on his points. He does not even know the difference between the Julian Calendar and the Gregorian calendar. I read his facebook posts on Nanakshahi, they don't have much substance aside from attacking Purewal by using ad hominem attacks. 

On 3/22/2019 at 7:19 AM, chatanga1 said:

Nanakshahi samvat was the same calendar just starting from birth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Many religions have done this. It has no bearing on the details/accuracy of the calendar.

Yes, it used to only be a sammat, not a full calendar. I mentioned it used Bikrami calculations.

On 3/22/2019 at 7:19 AM, chatanga1 said:

The replacement has to be better. If you replace something with something that is inferior or even the same value, no advance has been made. Now concerning the current divisions in the Panth, I would say that the Purewal has filled a petrol engine with diesel.

Not quite so. Both systems of measuring the length of the year, Sidereal (Nirayana) and Tropical (Sayana) are well mentioned in Indian Astronomy. Nanakshahi uses the Sayana system rather than the Nirayana system used by Bikrami. The reason for this so the calendar stays in-sync with the axis of the Earth, which causes it to stay in sync with the seasons (in Punjab).

On 3/22/2019 at 7:19 AM, chatanga1 said:

The calendar was the result of a phobia of everything related to "Hinduism." Throwing the label "Brahman/bahman/bipper" at others is just a way to denigrate them in the Panth. It is ploy used by missionaries. Anything that the missionaries support should be regarded as a lame duck by the Panth and not be worthy of supporting.

I mentioned this before.

On 3/21/2019 at 7:48 PM, FreshMind13 said:

Yea, these people do more harm then good for the argument for the Nanakshahi calendar. Nanakshahi is based of Bikrami, but it uses different calculations. Saying Bikrami is a Hindu or Brahman calendar would make Nanakshahi the same because it's based off of Bikrami.

The only thing "Brahman" about Bikrami was that you had to go to a Pandit, but now you can do the calculations yourself by reading British translations of their Sanskrit texts (mainly Surya Sidhantta). So that argument doesn't hold up. People who make those arguments are usually missionary types.

I base my argument on the actual math and science behind the calendar. To my surprise, there is much discussion about the Bikrami Calendar in the Hindu world today. Traditional Hindus want to maintain their traditional calculations as mentioned in the Surya Sidhantta Granth, while modern Indians want to use modern calculations called Drik Gannit.

 

On 3/22/2019 at 7:19 AM, chatanga1 said:

Purewal did eaxctly so. This was one of the things where he fall flat. He used the Bikrami date in 1999 on Khalsa Tricentary year, which gave it Jan 5th. If he had used it in the actual year of Guru Sahib's birth then it would not have been Jan 5th.

This argument does not hold up. There is no such thing as a "Base Year". No Nanakshahi Calculations use a base year. The Bikrami Date for 23 Poh (in 1999/2055BK) was January 7th, 1999. The Lunar Date of Poh Sudi 7, 2055BK was on December 25, 1998. If we use the actual year of Guru Sahib's Parkash, it would have been January 1st (check the table I posted earlier).

Where did he use Bikrami of 1999? Nowhere. This is a misunderstanding of how Nanakshahi dates were calculated. Read what I had posted earlier. This isn't some arbitrary date as people people like to make it out.

On 3/21/2019 at 9:52 PM, FreshMind13 said:

Purewal never fixed the date to January 5th. He converted the Lunar Bikrami Date (Poh Sudi 7, 1723 BK) to the Solar Bikrami Date (23 Poh, 1723 BK). Since Nanakshahi has the same months as Bikrami, 23 Poh became Parkash. In Nanakshahi, Poh Sangrand is December 14. If we add 23 Days to December 14 we get January 5th or 23 Poh.

I recommend reading the English version of the Surya Sidhantta for more detail and research papers on Indian astronomy which is a very old subject, India has been doing astronomy for many centuries and they were very accurate at it too until now where we have computers and satellites to track stars and Earth's movement.

 

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3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

The replacement has to be better. If you replace something with something that is inferior or even the same value, no advance has been made. Now concerning the current divisions in the Panth, I would say that the Purewal has filled a petrol engine with diesel.

 

2 hours ago, FreshMind13 said:

Maybe Purewal got some dates wrong, he is human.

I encourage everyone to read through Purewal's document http://www.purewal.biz/Gurbani_and_Nanakshahi_Calendar.pdf
 

It is fairly dripping with arrogance and stupidity. By stupidity, I mean the stupidity of a technical person who thinks the entire world should revolve around them and their Brand New Idea.

He gives 3 reasons for the Purewal calendar (direct quotes):

"We have given up the Bikrami calendar for the following reasons: 1. Its months do not have a permanent relationship with the seasons as mentioned in Gurbani. 2. We should have our own calendar. A calendar is a part of the identity of a Nation. 3. The lunar-date system is not very practical. For celebrations of important days we should use a calendar based on the solar tropical year. The Bikrami calendar is luni-solar based on the sidereal year."

By his own assertion, if any of these 3 reasons are knocked out, the reason for the Purewal calendar is knocked out. 

Reason #2 is simply ridiculous. By the way, he says passive-aggressively in response to the question of why didn't Guru Nanak ji just create a different calendar, "Neither did they invent the telephone, the car, airplanes, and other modern appliances like TV’s, Computers etc." Except that that's not the reasoning given in reason #2. 

In reason #2, he's not saying that the Purewal calendar is an incremental advance or innovation (like computers). He's saying that it's essential to the identity of a Nation. So which is is it? Is the Purewal calendar essential to the identity of the Sikh nation, or can it exist without the Purewal calendar? 

The fact is, the Panth did exist for 500 years without the Purewal calendar. Which means it can continue to exist without the Purewal calendar. Which means that the Purewal calendar is not essential to the identity of a the Sikh Nation.

Secondly, he is a computer engineer. That might qualify him to be an amateur astronomer.

But reason #2 is a value judgement which does not  have to do with the technicalities of calendar science.

That's how he and his fans are bamboozling the Panth, and I object to it. (Note that I am not talking about the technicalities of the Earth orbiting the Sun, etc., here.) He is taking his expertise in writing computer programs and claiming to therefore have the right to impose a value statement (that a calendar is essential to the identity of a Nation) on the Panth.

 

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His reason #1 still stands, Bikrami uses the Nirayana Year, not the Sayana Year, so it's not linked to the seasons.

Anyway, I'm not going to comment on his theological arguments for Nanakshahi, I can only support him on a scientific and Gurbani basis.

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