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Is man the head of the house?


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3 hours ago, Christiangirl52 said:

If you truly hate all things English, as you appear to do and are so bitter about past history,  may i ask why you choose to live in the UK? I assume you do live here.  I would not go to another country where i did not like or respect the culture. 

So you think people that critique certain aspects of society and history here should all sod off do you? There are plenty of things that I do like about the culture but that doesn't mean that I pretend to like the stuff that I don't. 

I think this is healthy. 

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On 4/7/2019 at 5:46 AM, dallysingh101 said:

I'm not even judging those people as bad. They are just natural products of their culture. Hell, you even see our own people doing similar when you go out. 

My point is that I don't think spirituality is something that comes naturally to English people. I mean even the founder of their religious sect of Christianity was someone who used to routinely behead his wives on any old pretext. King Henry the whatever. They guy was clearly a psycho. That this type of figure is fountain head of a religious community says a lot. That such an obvious ethically and morally dubious character can be celebrated and admired explains a lot. Especially all the murderously ruthless plundering and enslaving that people from this island have engaged in over the centuries - that they can actually keep a straight face and say that this was done as some act of paternal benevolence to help 'civilise' natives says a lot too. 

Those promiscuous clubbing types are the least of our problems here on this island. I'd be more concerned with all the sociopathic, self-centred and inherently deceptive animals you've put in positions of power here if I was you. I bet a fair few of them go to church to keep up appearances too. 

But the truth is that you're probably hopeless because it's been a long time (if ever) since English people have ever managed to successfully challenge their power structures for some noble cause. 

?

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Well, you are correct that people are deeply flawed. You, me, all humans. Not one is perfect. Some can be very argumentative, ill informed even. We are all born sinners.

 Only God is perfect and to Him we look for guidance.  Would you agree? 

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14 hours ago, Christiangirl52 said:

Well

As long as you are happy to engage in good debate. I can enlighten you about christianity and you can inform me about Sikhi. 

At this stage I think that is harder to do than it appears on the surface, and I think this is because of the key difference of all Abrahamic faiths being what we call dualistic or binary in that they've got a clear demarcation between good-evil, God-Devil so it is very black and white in that respect. I think this leads to externalising our 'bad' actions as derived from external nefarious sources as opposed to the the result of our own internal base natures? Also, linguistically, we do rely on translations in Christianity and although there is nothing wrong with this, I do belief that this can be dangerous due to potential mistranslations. 

I do wonder if in the effort to remove perceived superstitions and excessive rituals (which is understandable) reformist Christians lost some key elements of mystical spirituality from their religion? A lot of it does seem rooted in identity politics between England and Europe and exerting an independent identity from the RC church as opposed to matters of spirituality? (no offence meant here)

11 hours ago, Christiangirl52 said:

Well, you are correct that people are deeply flawed. You, me, all humans. Not one is perfect. Some can be very argumentative, ill informed even. We are all born sinners.

 Only God is perfect and to Him we look for guidance.  Would you agree? 

Yes I would agree that people seem naturally flawed. I think another key difference between Sikhi and Christianity (at least in its modern form) is the practice of simran or meditation. This is a main vehicle to connect to the divine. Also the externalising of God in Abrahamic faiths (God as an anthropomorphic entity that is separate from us) as opposed to the internalisation in Sikhi. 

You know (as an aside), I've always wondered why most major religions originate  from countries with hot climates, be this India, Arabia, Mid-east etc. do you think there may be a link between religious thought and weather? I've always suspected that the cold here might have something to do with most English people not being remotely religious - but I've also heard that the carnage witnessed in the world wars also shook the faith of the indigenous and led to a decline in faith.  

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3 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The god-devil/evil - good dichotomy in the Abrahamic religions derives from Zoroastrianism. 

The Jews picked this up when they were exiled to Babylon. 

Zoroastrianism and Vedic Hinduism seem to be linked in the past and then there seems to be some schism.

Have any references, bro?

Also, wasn't the earliest part of the Bible (Torah) written before the Babylonian exile? Or does it merely refer to events prior, but it was written during or after the exile in Babylon?

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On 4/7/2019 at 6:00 AM, Christiangirl52 said:

Oh dear. Henry 8 is not the point, just a king who took decisions. A human. Not God. He didn't 'found' Christianity.

Hi, ChristianGirl.

No, what the poster you're responding to ( @dallysingh101 ) said is not that King Henry VIII founded "Christianity" but rather "I mean even the founder of their religious sect of Christianity " (emphasis added)

meaning that King Henry founded this (your) sect of Christianity, namely Anglicanism.

I think you took the phase as "their sect (Christianity)" while he meant

"their particular sect ... of the Christian religion"

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23 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Have any references, bro?

Also, wasn't the earliest part of the Bible (Torah) written before the Babylonian exile? Or does it merely refer to events prior, but it was written during or after the exile in Babylon?

I have no direct sources but the concept of good and evil did come from Zoroastrianism. 

I know that Persians did conquer Babylon and there was definitely some influence on the Jewish population. 

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3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think this leads to externalising our 'bad' actions as derived from external nefarious sources as opposed to the the result of our own internal base natures?

OK, and the Christians do do a lot of that, as in "the Devil made me do it."

1) But how do you square that with the simultaneous Christian emphasis on the "sin nature" of man. Is not that "sin nature" internal?

 2) How do you feel about the portrayal of the 5 vices (lust, anger, greed, worldly attachment, and ego) as external forces afflicting the soul in Gurbani?

ਅਵਰਿ ਪੰਚ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਜਨਾ ਕਿਉ ਰਾਖਉ ਘਰ ਬਾਰੁ ਮਨਾ ॥

There are five of them, but I am all alone. How can I protect my hearth and home, O my mind?
ਮਾਰਹਿ ਲੂਟਹਿ ਨੀਤ ਨੀਤ ਕਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਜਨਾ ॥੧॥

They are beating and plundering me over and over again; unto whom can I complain? ||1|| p155, M1

 

When a man dies, the five are shown as leaving, as if they were external in the first place:

ਢਾਹਿ ਮੜੋਲੀ ਲੂਟਿਆ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਪਕੜੀ ਏਕ ਜਨਾ ॥

In this way, the temple is being demolished; the body is being plundered, and the soul-bride, left all alone, is captured.


ਜਮ ਡੰਡਾ ਗਲਿ ਸੰਗਲੁ ਪੜਿਆ ਭਾਗਿ ਗਏ ਸੇ ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ॥੩॥

Death strikes her down with his rod, the shackles are placed around her neck, and now the five have left. ||3||

Raag Gauri Guru Nanak Dev

 

Also:
 

ਕਬੀਰ ਹਰਨਾ ਦੂਬਲਾ ਇਹੁ ਹਰੀਆਰਾ ਤਾਲੁ ॥

Kabeer, the deer is weak, and the pool is lush with green vegetation.

ਲਾਖ ਅਹੇਰੀ ਏਕੁ ਜੀਉ ਕੇਤਾ ਬੰਚਉ ਕਾਲੁ ॥੫੩॥

Thousands of hunters are chasing after the soul; how long can it escape death? ||53||

Salok Kabeer ji, p1367

 

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