Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
puzzled

Is man the head of the house?

Recommended Posts

The god-devil/evil - good dichotomy in the Abrahamic religions derives from Zoroastrianism. 

The Jews picked this up when they were exiled to Babylon. 

Zoroastrianism and Vedic Hinduism seem to be linked in the past and then there seems to be some schism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The god-devil/evil - good dichotomy in the Abrahamic religions derives from Zoroastrianism. 

The Jews picked this up when they were exiled to Babylon. 

Zoroastrianism and Vedic Hinduism seem to be linked in the past and then there seems to be some schism.

Have any references, bro?

Also, wasn't the earliest part of the Bible (Torah) written before the Babylonian exile? Or does it merely refer to events prior, but it was written during or after the exile in Babylon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/7/2019 at 6:00 AM, Christiangirl52 said:

Oh dear. Henry 8 is not the point, just a king who took decisions. A human. Not God. He didn't 'found' Christianity.

Hi, ChristianGirl.

No, what the poster you're responding to ( @dallysingh101 ) said is not that King Henry VIII founded "Christianity" but rather "I mean even the founder of their religious sect of Christianity " (emphasis added)

meaning that King Henry founded this (your) sect of Christianity, namely Anglicanism.

I think you took the phase as "their sect (Christianity)" while he meant

"their particular sect ... of the Christian religion"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Have any references, bro?

Also, wasn't the earliest part of the Bible (Torah) written before the Babylonian exile? Or does it merely refer to events prior, but it was written during or after the exile in Babylon?

I have no direct sources but the concept of good and evil did come from Zoroastrianism. 

I know that Persians did conquer Babylon and there was definitely some influence on the Jewish population. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think this leads to externalising our 'bad' actions as derived from external nefarious sources as opposed to the the result of our own internal base natures?

OK, and the Christians do do a lot of that, as in "the Devil made me do it."

1) But how do you square that with the simultaneous Christian emphasis on the "sin nature" of man. Is not that "sin nature" internal?

 2) How do you feel about the portrayal of the 5 vices (lust, anger, greed, worldly attachment, and ego) as external forces afflicting the soul in Gurbani?

ਅਵਰਿ ਪੰਚ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਜਨਾ ਕਿਉ ਰਾਖਉ ਘਰ ਬਾਰੁ ਮਨਾ ॥

There are five of them, but I am all alone. How can I protect my hearth and home, O my mind?
ਮਾਰਹਿ ਲੂਟਹਿ ਨੀਤ ਨੀਤ ਕਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਜਨਾ ॥੧॥

They are beating and plundering me over and over again; unto whom can I complain? ||1|| p155, M1

 

When a man dies, the five are shown as leaving, as if they were external in the first place:

ਢਾਹਿ ਮੜੋਲੀ ਲੂਟਿਆ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਪਕੜੀ ਏਕ ਜਨਾ ॥

In this way, the temple is being demolished; the body is being plundered, and the soul-bride, left all alone, is captured.


ਜਮ ਡੰਡਾ ਗਲਿ ਸੰਗਲੁ ਪੜਿਆ ਭਾਗਿ ਗਏ ਸੇ ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ॥੩॥

Death strikes her down with his rod, the shackles are placed around her neck, and now the five have left. ||3||

Raag Gauri Guru Nanak Dev

 

Also:
 

ਕਬੀਰ ਹਰਨਾ ਦੂਬਲਾ ਇਹੁ ਹਰੀਆਰਾ ਤਾਲੁ ॥

Kabeer, the deer is weak, and the pool is lush with green vegetation.

ਲਾਖ ਅਹੇਰੀ ਏਕੁ ਜੀਉ ਕੇਤਾ ਬੰਚਉ ਕਾਲੁ ॥੫੩॥

Thousands of hunters are chasing after the soul; how long can it escape death? ||53||

Salok Kabeer ji, p1367

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/7/2019 at 7:58 AM, Christiangirl52 said:

Actually, what is the sikh view on homosexuality? 

The Bible clearly says it is wrong and against God's wishes. Yet these days this is usually ignored. Gayness is celebrated and visible on TV and everywhere as being normal. I do not think so. I believe in God's Word. Yet i cannot and must not judge, God is the judge. 

That is the thing. We cant start changing what religions say about queers. Christianity cleary condemns the practice so people should just accept that its wrong. If they dont agree then dont be a christian. Become a buddist or something else. We cant try and knit pick things we like about a faith. You kind of have to accept everthing or not. There are no half measures. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

On the subject of sin my understanding is that we are born prone to be sinners. Due to original sin in the garden of Eden. We have knowledge of good and evil so can choose to sin or resist it. The only way to resist is through prayers to christ. Contrition and repentence is vital. The. Christ helps. Without prayer we are lost to sin. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Christiangirl52 said:

On the subject of sin my understanding is that we are born prone to be sinners. Due to original sin in the garden of Eden. We have knowledge of good and evil so can choose to sin or resist it. The only way to resist is through prayers to christ. Contrition and repentence is vital. The. Christ helps. Without prayer we are lost to sin. 

You keep putting this Christian belief of this original sin and only way to redeem.... Please 

Sikhism is about unity consciousness. One God in many infinite manifestations. Gay are not looked down upon as in Christianity which is build upon separation and redemption. It’s about unconditional love for all not selectively and keep printing new versions of scriptures to their convinence. Judging condemning punishment are hallmarks of your scripture. In Christianity GOD is like a bigger version of your human father who gives and take away stuff as you please or displease him it’s a conditional not Unconditional love Sikhism is talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, scali said:

Gay are not looked down upon as in Christianity which is build upon separation and redemption.

Where do you get this? Some new-age 3HO pamphlet?

When has homosexuality ever been promoted in Sikhism? From the time of Guru Nanak Dev ji? Only heterosexuality has been promoted. 

If "gays are not looked down" by you mean to say that men can have close personal friendships with other men, fine. But men have always been encouraged to get married.

Gurbani talks of the love and union of a woman and a man. Never a man and a man. The books of Sikh history never talk about homosexual unions. Where are you getting this?

8 hours ago, scali said:

It’s about unconditional love for all 

OK, what is that supposed to mean, exactly? You make sweeping statements. If a love is unconditional, that means no conditions at all, whatsoever. Also all means all, right?

ਜਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਣਾਇਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਮੁਹ ਫਿਕੇ ॥

One who, not serving the True Guru, praises himself, is filled with falsehood within. Cursed, cursed is his ugly face. p304.

 

Does that sound like "unconditional love for all"? Sounds more like if you hate God and love yourself and Mammon, then you are cursed.

 

ਵੈਰੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ਨਾਲਿ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਆਇ ਪਚੰਦੇ ॥

Those who hate the One who has no hatred - according to the true justice of Dharma, they shall perish.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਸੰਤਿ ਸਰਾਪਿਆ ਸੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਭਵੰਦੇ ॥

Those who are cursed by the Saints will continue wandering aimlessly.

p306

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, scali said:

Judging condemning punishment are hallmarks of your scripture.

I totally agree, "her scripture" condemns and punishes. 

For example:

The sinners commit sinful deeds, and then they weep and wail.

O Nanak, just as the churning stick churns the butter, so does the Righteous Judge of Dharma churn them. ||9||

 

Oops, that's Gurbani. p1425

 

ਸੁਤੜੇ ਅਸੰਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਝੂਠੀ ਕਾਰਣੇ ॥

Millions are asleep, in the false illusion of Maya.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇ ਜਾਗੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਜਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਾਰਣੇ ॥੧੩॥

O Nanak, they alone are awake and aware, who chant the Naam with their tongues. ||13||

 

But why aren't all awakened? Why are only some? Doesn't God love them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, scali said:

not Unconditional love Sikhism is talking about.

Unconditional love like haters of God being condemned to the pain of births and deaths?

 

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਤੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਮੂੜ ਨਰ ਕਾਚੇ ॥

Those who are not in love with the Lord are foolish and false - they are faithless cynics.

ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਰਣੁ ਅਤਿ ਭਾਰੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਿਸਟਾ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਪਾਚੇ ॥੨॥

They suffer the most extreme agonies of birth and death; they die over and over again, and they rot away in manure. ||2|| p169

 

So is rotting in manure a manifestation of unconditional love?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gurbani is speaking to an audience at various spiritual levels. The aim bottom line is the ultimate truth the oneness all else is an illusion. The basics of Bhai Khaniya serving all even so called enemies. You become what you worship. You want to stuck in an illusion of separation and reincarnation it is your choice, you will have a lot of company ie most of the world. I rest my belief in oneness and proceed through life as we are all connected with my free will it always boils down to choice...you can create new religions out of quotes in Gurbani like Radhaswamis, Namdharis, Nirankari, Ram Rahim etc by twisting and turning gurbani to fit your cause.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, scali said:

Thebasics of Bhai Khaniya serving all even so called enemies.

Bhai khaniya ji did not serve the so called enemies.  He helped those that have fallen on the battlefield.  Do you think he would have helped the soldier that was injured from the battle but was still holding a sword or  another weapon and saying I'm kill you and your Guru? The basic of bhai khaniya ji is he saw Vaheguru in all but he wouldn't help the hand that wants to kill him in that moment. 

 

5 hours ago, scali said:

Youbecome what you worship. You want to stuck in an illusion of separation and reincarnation it is your choice, you will have a lot of company ie most of the world. I rest my belief in oneness and proceed throughlife as we are all connected with my free will it always boils down to choice.

Reincarnation is not a belief in Sikhi.  It's a reality.  Gurbani says there are worlds beyond worlds, but there is only the one.  This does not mean the other worlds don't exist in creation.  Guru Sahib is saying remember the one, Vaheguru and the existence of the other worlds would not matter.  It's like reincarnation to a Saint.  He doesn't need to focus on what if he lands in reincarnation because hes already lost all sense of the self and remembers Vaheguru.   You on the other hand hold on to the sense you exist by saying you have free choice.  You are stuck in duality as much as the atheist.  Only difference is the atheist doesn't believe in the existence of Vaheguru, therefore they have free will and you think you are equal to Vaheguru because you believe you have control over your life.  Both have the highest amount of egotistical thinking that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is teaching to get rid of.

No Sikh worships reincarnation. It's a real system that exist like the world, so long as creation exist.  Gurbani says, Vaheguru you do all.  I wonder how you worship or focus your concentration on these words when truly you believe you have free will and can make choices.   I say Gurbani is right and your belief is wrong but it seems you have given more importance to your beliefs than Gurbani taught reality.

Poster bhforce post on quoting Gurbani present a reality you are not willing to accept.   But I don't blame you because Guru Sahib has not shown you the way yet.  Hes kept you in the dark for a long time for some reason and we accept that reality as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have gone through my own exhaustive research and came to this. You are more than welcome to have your own it’s all allowed in free will. But you sound no different than Muslim, Christians and Hindu fundamentalists who want to shove their own beliefs in peoples throats. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use