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Kali on Guru Hargobind sahibs sword


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For Sikhs it is only for decorative reasoning & no significance in any religious way. We do not believe putting any symbols or pictures on anything for the good omen. Our guru sahib jee taught us

Yeah bani has many layers, most people just scratch the surface. Only Brahmgyanis and alike are able dive deep into bani. Its so mystical.   From how I see it, the stories of Indian and Abra

Its just symbolism. Kali is the goddess of war, destroyer of demons and evil, so its no surprise her image was carved onto swords and other weapons. Other deities associated with war were used as well

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I really don't understand the whole obsession over idol worship.  People here take it to an extreme and seem to think it means all symbolism should be removed from Sikhi and the religion should become as austere and shallow as modern-day Islam.

Obviously, mindless idol worship is bad, everyone would agree with this (including Hindus), but its also obvious Hindu symbology had a spiritual influence on the gurus, and if you actually do naam jaap you'll find you can engage with these symbols in a way that is deeper than idol worship.  Any personal practice of sikhi that doesn't even attempt to engage with this symbols, is incomplete and ahistorical in my opinion.

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6 minutes ago, SargunNN said:

I really don't understand the whole obsession over idol worship.  People here take it to an extreme and seem to think it means all symbolism should be removed from Sikhi and the religion should become as austere and shallow as modern-day Islam.

Obviously, mindless idol worship is bad, everyone would agree with this (including Hindus), but its also obvious Hindu symbology had a spiritual influence on the gurus, and if you actually do naam jaap you'll find you can engage with these symbols in a way that is deeper than idol worship.  Any personal practice of sikhi that doesn't even attempt to engage with this symbols, is incomplete and ahistorical in my opinion.

If you do naam jap you'll find that Waheguru has no form

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4 minutes ago, intrigued said:

If you do naam jap you'll find that Waheguru has no form

Maybe. Personally I feel Waheguru is both formless and formed as the concept of Sargun and Nirgun tries to illustrate. I try to focus on both in meditation.

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12 minutes ago, SargunNN said:

I really don't understand the whole obsession over idol worship.  People here take it to an extreme and seem to think it means all symbolism should be removed from Sikhi and the religion should become as austere and shallow as modern-day Islam.

Obviously, mindless idol worship is bad, everyone would agree with this (including Hindus), but its also obvious Hindu symbology had a spiritual influence on the gurus, and if you actually do naam jaap you'll find you can engage with these symbols in a way that is deeper than idol worship.  Any personal practice of sikhi that doesn't even attempt to engage with this symbols, is incomplete and ahistorical in my opinion.

Wouldn't say it had any "influence" on the gurus, but the gurus used already existing Indian stories that the average South Asian would have been familiar with, to set examples, e.g Indira committed adultry with Aaliyah and was humiliated in the next world, so don't commit adultry...

Or these stories were used to evoke different emotions. Like Durga destroying the demons. Sikhs in those days would sing Chandi di Vaar while marching to war. 

It's one of reasons why the nagara drum was used, to build up bir rass and confidence.

 

You can compare it to people in the west keeping statues or paintings of Buddha in their homes, it creates a relaxing and calming atmosphere. 

 

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14 minutes ago, SargunNN said:

Maybe. Personally I feel Waheguru is both formless and formed as the concept of Sargun and Nirgun tries to illustrate. I try to focus on both in meditation.

If you want to give Waheguru a form, the whole universe would be it. 

ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥

Prabhaatee:

 

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥

ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦਾ ਨੂਰ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ (ਜਗਤ) ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਅ-ਜੰਤ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੇ ਹੀ ਬਣਾਏ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ । ਇਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਹੀ ਜੋਤ ਤੋਂ ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ । 

First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

 

ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥

(ਤਾਂ ਫਿਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਜਾਤ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੇ ਭੁਲੇਖੇ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਕੇ) ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਤੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਦਾ ਨਾਹ ਸਮਝੋ ।੧।

From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

 

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥

ਹੇ ਲੋਕੋ! ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! (ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਹਸਤੀ ਬਾਰੇ) ਕਿਸੇ ਭੁਲੇਖੇ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਨਾਹ ਹੋਵੋ । 

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

 

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਉਹ ਰੱਬ ਸਾਰੀ ਖ਼ਲਕਤ ਨੂੰ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਸਾਰੀ ਖ਼ਲਕਤ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਜੂਦ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਭ ਥਾਂ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਹੈ ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

 

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥

ਸਿਰਜਨਹਾਰ ਨੇ ਇੱਕੋ ਹੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਤੋਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਇੱਕੋ ਜਿਹੇ ਹੀ ਤੱਤਾਂ ਤੋਂ) ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਕਿਸਮਾਂ ਦੇੁ ਜੀਆ-ਜੰਤ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਹਨ । 

The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

 

ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥

(ਜਿੱਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਸਲੇ ਦਾ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਹੈ) ਨਾਹ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਦੇ ਭਾਂਡਿਆਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੀਵਾਂ) ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਊਣਤਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਨਾਹ (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਭਾਂਡਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਬਣਾਣ ਵਾਲੇ) ਘੁਮਿਆਰ ਵਿਚ ।੨।

There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

 

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥

ਉਹ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ । ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸੇ ਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ । 

The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

 

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥

ਉਹੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਰੱਬ ਦਾ (ਪਿਆਰਾ) ਬੰਦਾ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਇਕ ਨਾਲ ਸਾਂਝ ਪਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।੩।

Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

 

ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥

ਉਹ ਰੱਬ ਐਸਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਮੁਕੰਮਲ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਆਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ । ਕਬੀਰ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ—ਮੇਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ-ਰੂਪ) ਮਿੱਠਾ ਗੁੜ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਦ ਤਾਂ ਮੈਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੱਸ ਸਕਦਾ, 

The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

 

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥

ਪਰ) ਮੈਂ ਉਸ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਹਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਵੇਖ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ੱਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਿਹਾ (ਮੇਰਾ ਅੰਦਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਜਾਤ ਜਾਂ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੇ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਉੱਚਤਾ ਜਾਂ ਨੀਚਤਾ ਦਾ ਕਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਿਹਾ) ।੪।੩।

Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

 

Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Prabhaatee - 1350

 

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4 minutes ago, puzzled said:

You can compare it to people in the west keeping statues or paintings of Buddha in their homes, it creates a relaxing and calming atmosphere. 

Perhaps you are right, but I find it hard to believe the various references to these symbols throughout Gurbani is so shallow, and just for purposes of making it digestible to the people of that time.  I would think their inclusion is worth exploring at a deeper level.

Other commenters have pointed out in regards to dasam bani specifically, how it has meaning on multiple dimensions, and I would agree with that view.

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2 minutes ago, SargunNN said:

Perhaps you are right, but I find it hard to believe the various references to these symbols throughout Gurbani is so shallow, and just for purposes of making it digestible to the people of that time.  I would think their inclusion is worth exploring at a deeper level.

Other commenters have pointed out in regards to dasam bani specifically, how it has meaning on multiple dimensions, and I would agree with that view.

I agree that Gurbani has many layers but I would be careful when it comes to idols as it becomes a rabbit hole of sorts

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ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੇ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ੯ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ੫

Aasaa, Kabeer Jee, 9 Panch-Padhay, 5 Dho-Thukay:

 

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

 

ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥

ਅੱਗੇ ਭੇਟ ਧਰਨ ਲਈ) ਮਾਲਣ ਪੱਤਰ ਤੋੜਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਪਰ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦੀ ਕਿ) ਹਰੇਕ ਪੱਤਰ ਵਿਚ ਜਿੰਦ ਹੈ । 

You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life.

 

ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

ਜਿਸ ਪੱਥਰ (ਦੀ ਮੂਰਤੀ) ਦੇ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ (ਮਾਲਣ) ਪੱਤਰ ਤੋੜਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਪੱਥਰ (ਦੀ ਮੂਰਤੀ) ਨਿਰਜਿੰਦ ਹੈ ।੧।

That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1||

 

ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥

(ਇਕ ਨਿਰਜਿੰਦ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ) ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ (ਇਹ) ਮਾਲਣ ਭੁੱਲ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, 

In this, you are mistaken, O gardener.

 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

(ਅਸਲੀ ਇਸ਼ਟ) ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਤਾਂ (ਜੀਉਂਦਾ) ਜਾਗਦਾ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਹੈ ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||

 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਡਾਰੀ ਫੂਲ ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ ॥

(ਹੇ ਮਾਲਣ!) ਪੱਤਰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ-ਰੂਪ ਹਨ, ਡਾਲੀ ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂ-ਰੂਪ ਅਤੇ ਫੁੱਲ ਸ਼ਿਵ-ਰੂਪ ।

Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.

 

ਤੀਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਤੋਰਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਉ ॥੨॥

ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤਿੰਨ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਨਾਸ ਕਰ ਰਹੀ ਹੈਂ, (ਫਿਰ) ਸੇਵਾ ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈਂ? ।੨।

When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||

 

ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ ॥

(ਮੂਰਤੀ ਘੜਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੇ) ਪੱਥਰ ਘੜ ਕੇ, ਤੇ (ਘੜਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਦੀ) ਛਾਤੀ ੳੱੁਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਤਿਆਰ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ । 

The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest.

 

ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥

ਜੇ ਇਹ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਹੀ ਅਸਲੀ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਇਸ ਨਿਰਾਦਰੀ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ) ਘੜਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਖਾ ਜਾਂਦੀ ।੩।

If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3||

 

ਭਾਤੁ ਪਹਿਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਲਾਪਸੀ ਕਰਕਰਾ ਕਾਸਾਰੁ ॥

ਭੱਤ, ਦਾਲ, ਲੱਪੀ ਅਤੇ ਮੁਰਕਣੀ ਪੰਜੀਰੀ ਤਾਂ ਛਕਣ ਵਾਲਾ (ਪੁਜਾਰੀ ਹੀ) ਛਕ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, 

Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies

 

ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੋਗਿਆ ਇਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੪॥

ਇਸ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਵਿਚ ਕੁਝ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ (ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਨਿਰਜਿੰਦ ਹੈ, ਖਾਵੇ ਕਿਵੇਂ?) ।੪।

- the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4||

 

ਮਾਲਿਨਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜਗੁ ਭੁਲਾਨਾ ਹਮ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

ਮਾਲਣ (ਮੂਰਤੀ ਪੂਜਣ ਦੇ) ਭੁਲੇਖੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਜਗਤ ਭੀ ਇਹੀ ਟਪਲਾ ਖਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਅਸਾਂ ਇਹ ਗ਼ਲਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਖਾਧੀ, 

The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken.

 

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਹਮ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਖੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥

ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਭੁਲੇਖੇ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਾ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ ।੫।੧।੧੪।

Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon me. ||5||1||14||

 

Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Aasaa - 479

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Our ten guru meditated and told us to naam jap on Waheguru Jees name and guru Nanak Dev ji described Akal purakh  in our mool mantar sahib very clearly.  

We don’t need any human form nor we need any other physical form of help for our spiritual journey (which should be 24/7). 
 

symbols, paintings, idols, pictures, artefacts etc etc are all temporary and stays in this world and only our naam jap goes with soul. 

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8 hours ago, S1ngh said:

Quora is your source? 😝

are you saying that Sikh Gurus told Sikhs to believe in murti pooja and keep figures or drawing for good luck or omen? 🙃

I've provided a link that includes evidence of belief in idol worship. Can you counter it? 

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6 hours ago, S1ngh said:

Our ten guru meditated and told us to naam jap on Waheguru Jees name and guru Nanak Dev ji described Akal purakh  in our mool mantar sahib very clearly.  

We don’t need any human form nor we need any other physical form of help for our spiritual journey (which should be 24/7). 
 

symbols, paintings, idols, pictures, artefacts etc etc are all temporary and stays in this world and only our naam jap goes with soul. 

But the gurus are proven to have undertaken pilgrimages to Ayodhya, Ganga, worship of Durga, Ram, Hari. 

Most people need something to focus their mind on meditation.  It also helps to retain followers.  

Once you attain enlightenment your soul is free of all entanglements.  So you will remain non attached. 

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On 5/1/2019 at 9:54 AM, Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

then that beggers the question ONCE AGAIN what is the difference between a hindu and a sikh ? or between hinduism and sikhism ?

 

If that's you Ajeet lurking again, I told you to read that Sikh Revolution book by Jagjit Singh to answer your question, but it looks like you're more interested in stoking controversy than actually answering your own question. 

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    • I don't think you have any independent thoughts. You just seem to parrot what a white boy would say. Like you are one of their chumchay. I mean this seriously, not trying to offend you. Like what Priti Patel does, but on a lower level.  I don't get what you are saying here? 
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    • I am sure theres many sikh videos of weddings. Look at rainsbai weddings. Or akj weddings.        There is milni. As the girls side of the family is in charge of the venue. They get their earlier and prepare breakfast langar ( cha pakore etc). Then when the groom and his family come over. They meet each other outside the gurudwara in the parking lot. Ideally the girls family should be doing kirtan with vaja dholki of Aye Mil Gurshikh... as they welcome the grooms family. but if noone from the girls family is a musician, the two families can just greet each other with fateh. Then each of the relatives are introduced to their contrapart. The father meet the father in law. They can say fateh and give sarope to each other. Then the mothers, brothers, uncles, aunts. Then the grooms party is invited to eat langar ( i think they do this before matha teking and as they are sangat, they are allowed to eat first...i think) After langar, groom and his family go matha tek. The groom sits in front of the sangat where they do matha tek.  Then bride walks in. Matha teks, sits next to groom. The palla ardaas is done. Then the shabad about Pallai taindai laagee (or is shabad done before?) And then lavaan etc. 
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