Jump to content

Do the ideas of Nations & Borders fit in a Sikh framework?


Guest Guest Singh

Recommended Posts

Guest Guest Singh

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

Sangat ji I have had this kinda weird thought for quite some time.

I just don't believe in the idea on nations and borders. After all it's all politics. I believe they are a by-product of cultures. But Sikhi teaches to recognise the entire human race as one and the same irrespective of religion, ethnicity, race and color, and in doing so to live with peace and harmony with everyone. So IDEALLY, there would be no need for borders if everyone lives peacefully. (This has led me to not feel any sort of "nationality" for the country I live in, but that's a whole another issue) I know Utopia does not exist, but I'm almost irrationally optimistic and hence such thoughts. 😓

I want to know if I've got something fundamentally wrong in my understanding of a nation. I'm not able to put all my scattered thoughts in a single post.

(PS. Please refrain from touching the topic of Khalistan even if it might seem relevant as this is a general query 🙂)

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Guest Guest Singh said:

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

Sangat ji I have had this kinda weird thought for quite some time.

I just don't believe in the idea on nations and borders. After all it's all politics. I believe they are a by-product of cultures. But Sikhi teaches to recognise the entire human race as one and the same irrespective of religion, ethnicity, race and color, and in doing so to live with peace and harmony with everyone. So IDEALLY, there would be no need for borders if everyone lives peacefully. (This has led me to not feel any sort of "nationality" for the country I live in, but that's a whole another issue) I know Utopia does not exist, but I'm almost irrationally optimistic and hence such thoughts. 😓

I want to know if I've got something fundamentally wrong in my understanding of a nation. I'm not able to put all my scattered thoughts in a single post.

(PS. Please refrain from touching the topic of Khalistan even if it might seem relevant as this is a general query 🙂)

I dont know. I think nations are beautiful. Its like a family on a grander scale. Its ppl who you share identity with, people who understand u and among whom u can walk without standing out. There is no mistrust. If u share the culture withthe nation then u understand the unspoken rules and its easier.

I think sikhi has nothing to do with nations. If society is elevated beyond nations. Thats great but sikhi should not demolish nations until society is ready for it. And not advocate for open borders, until society itself forms them.

When we try to enforce a good and noble concept, it never works. It backfires. Think of america forcing democracy and freedom on countries not ready for it. The french educated elite forcing democracy in the French Revolution. Democracy is good, but ppl werent ready for it. And it set democracy back for years as ppl used the french revolution to mock democracy and call it mob rule. Same thing with communism. It is a great concept, that we should all be equal etc. But in reality, it has never worked, as it was forced and the population was not ready for it. I think only in satyug can communism work, as capitalism is so engrained in us. 

Currently with brexit and the refugee crisis, and the mexican-US border wall issue, its showing us that most nations dont want open borders. Although politicians have been trying to implement it and it is back firing and ppl r become more and mlre racist and nationalist to counter their governments open border policies.

I do recognize the feeling ur feeling. The expansive love for humanity and for everyone and the variety in ppl seems beautiful. 

This feeling is beautiful but fleeting. Enjoy it, go volunteer. But dont base politics around it. 

In fact, sikhi is very practical and against open borders. Its important for sikh ppl to be in power and to maintain that power thru force. 

Raj bina neh dharam chale hai, dharam bina sab dale male hai

Because if u have a ooen border policy, the few bad ppl can ruin it for the majority, so ots always important thay good ppl (hopefully sikhs) always have power. If the good become powerless, dictators and bad ppl will jump into the power vacuum. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the nature of the Earth means there will be borders. The Earth is round and there are land masses separated by water. These are physical boundaries. Then you have areas of desert and of ice. The people who live in these areas would be very different, even if they were Sikhs and practised Sikhi. 

What you grow in one area would not be suitable for growing in another area. Even with worldwide transport, food would be largely based on local produce. 

The climates are different so the buildings would be different. Even the Gurdwara designs would be different. 

Look at how different the English language is spoken across the globe. Accents develop and change. The way Punjabi is spoken would be subtly different across the globe. 

What I’m trying to say is that even if the whole world were Sikhs practicing Sikhi, there would be differences in local culture and customs. This in itself might then give rise to factions or groups.

Further, how would you govern or manage such massive populations even at the continental level? You’d need to divide and subdivide into manageable chunks. Now you have borders. 

Add that to differences in culture and you’d have populations that could be distinguished as separate groups or nations. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I'm having trouble reconciling the harmonious and devotional teachings with the harsh day-to-day realities of human nature. I appreciate and strive for the internal, individualized aspects of forgiveness, tolerance, etc., but this idea of practically viewing the human race as one when actual experience teaches us that some sections of humankind possess attributes that are barely removed from animals, is a bridge too far for me. Are we meant to kill such people with kindness? Hug the bad out of them? Such people rarely, if ever, see the light and mend their ways. Does a Sikh continue putting him or herself in harm's way until the change arrives? I don't see it as a liveable creed; it's completely imbalanced, and incredibly damaging on so many levels for the person doing the heavy lifting so to speak. Where am I going wrong?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest
On 5/4/2019 at 7:14 PM, Guest Guest Singh said:

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

Sangat ji I have had this kinda weird thought for quite some time.

I just don't believe in the idea on nations and borders. After all it's all politics. I believe they are a by-product of cultures. But Sikhi teaches to recognise the entire human race as one and the same irrespective of religion, ethnicity, race and color, and in doing so to live with peace and harmony with everyone. So IDEALLY, there would be no need for borders if everyone lives peacefully. (This has led me to not feel any sort of "nationality" for the country I live in, but that's a whole another issue) I know Utopia does not exist, but I'm almost irrationally optimistic and hence such thoughts. 😓

I want to know if I've got something fundamentally wrong in my understanding of a nation. I'm not able to put all my scattered thoughts in a single post.

(PS. Please refrain from touching the topic of Khalistan even if it might seem relevant as this is a general query 🙂)

where is God mentioned in your statement? answer- nowhere. so how then does it have anything to do with Sikhi?

does the quote you give say what you think it does, or does it say that all nations recognise the One (all people recognise God)?

you sound like some kind of atheist socialist, no a sikh.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jai Tegang

I feel autonomy for the community of believers is envisiond from the get go of our dharam. Kartarpur, khadoor, goindwal, ramdaspur, tarn taran, sri hargobindpur, kiratpur, anandpur..... each aspect of their teachings fully practiced out, including in the political sphere. We are meant to strive for nation building, community upliftment, success, victory.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Personally, I'm having trouble reconciling the harmonious and devotional teachings with the harsh day-to-day realities of human nature. I appreciate and strive for the internal, individualized aspects of forgiveness, tolerance, etc., but this idea of practically viewing the human race as one when actual experience teaches us that some sections of humankind possess attributes that are barely removed from animals, is a bridge too far for me. Are we meant to kill such people with kindness? Hug the bad out of them? Such people rarely, if ever, see the light and mend their ways. Does a Sikh continue putting him or herself in harm's way until the change arrives? I don't see it as a liveable creed; it's completely imbalanced, and incredibly damaging on so many levels for the person doing the heavy lifting so to speak. Where am I going wrong?

I don't think you are going wrong. People assume roles here on earth - some are demonic (asuras or daints) and some very rare ones are akin to devtay (gods), most fluctuate somewhere in between with a natural tendency towards succumbing to their egos and self-centredness. Then there are clearly a lot of people out there who are on some sociopathic/psychopathic scale, who seem to be cursed neurobiologically to be incapable of conceiving the world around them outside of their own twisted selfish mental constructs which views other people as simply potential tools to manipulate for their own ends, and sometimes just for their own amusement and twisted self-gratification. This inability for empathy and compassion makes them akin to demons. 

Akaal Ustat (to me) teaches us about all this diversity in human nature, Sikhi also teaches us to protect ourselves and our community (and even the most vulnerable when we are strong enough). I think people have symbolised the shaster/aster aspect of SIkhi so much now (post annexation and under insidious angrez influence) that they actually can't grasp why Guru ji instructed Singhs to have 5 hathiars going on, on a practical real basis outside of some twisted outside introduced notion of symbolism obviously introduced by goray to weaken Singhs and reduce their chances of throwing off colonial rule in Panjab. 

Understanding human nature and protecting yourself from the more destructive elements of it is part and parcel of Sikhi from what I understand. This includes forces within us and those generated from other people. Even CP heavily broaches the topic of being aware and not getting caught out by deception and your own ignorance. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest Singh
On 5/6/2019 at 4:33 AM, Guest guest said:

you sound like some kind of atheist socialist, no a sikh.

Do I? Okay. I've always been a Sikh though. Btw you sound like one of those people who don't have anything to contribute to a decent topic, and just point fingers at others.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 years later...
On 5/5/2019 at 12:44 PM, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Same thing with communism. It is a great concept, that we should all be equal etc.

Well communism is a little different lol

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

What people confuse for communism is more like altruistic anarchy or alrtuistic tribalism. 

Only two laws governed the Seattle Natives. Respect and Share. There were caps on how much you could harvest of any one thing, they only worked three months a year, and then spent nine months celebrating the Ultimate Creator Spirit and the Earth Mother. You could heap up extra every year, but you were only great if you shared it with everybody in the communal Spiritual feasts and dances that made up most the year. 

All Native American tribes had clans devoted to different animals and elements dedicated to being stewards of that animal or thing. 

They knew everything sang it's own songs and they could hear them. 

Sidenote: They kept Kesh. 

This concept of stewardship for this planet, all life, each other. Living timelessly in a way that gives seven generations down the line a beautiful planet? Being responsible? Eliminating and curtailing greed and rape?

Sure there are communal or collaborative things about that. But dont confuse any of that with "communism".

Ultimate example for us all. What I can only describe as the Altruistic Anarcho Capitalist Conservationist Revolutionary Indescribable way the Guru Sahiban, Gursikhs and the Khasla rose up a 1's Kingdom from nothing but Courageous Goodness. 

Talk about an invasion. No matter what country, no matter how horrible a time, Akal Purakh Vaehguru sets up shop and liberates it with nothing. Leading from the front. Sacrificing everything. 

No wonder history doesn't teach Sikhi. Embarassing to everyone else who thinks they're anything in history. 

Only people who wouldn't be absolutely humbled, humiliated and shamed are Indigenous Tribes and Clans and the Persian Empire. Not that they were at all on the same level but at least they're closer to it than what this world celebrates as civilization. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, intrigued said:

I would say one of the worst things about communism is that it gets rid of the nuclear family.

Amen to that bro. And really the nuclear family model itself is an occupied state. Extended family model is present in all the great People's. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use