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Guru Arjan Dev ji di shaheedi - true culprits

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The rishta issue was a tiny, barely significant contributing factor in among many other greater issues. Who's arguing it was the only or major reason for shaheedi?

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47 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

The rishta issue was a tiny, barely significant contributing factor in among many other greater issues. Who's arguing it was the only or major reason for shaheedi?

Jahangir's explicit mention of Guru ji's shaheedi and his reasons for issuing the order (in his Persian memoirs) wasn't known until fairly recently - so it is no wonder that apnay might have amplified hearsay or other minor, associated contemporary events which became 'common knowledge'. 

According to the one that issued the order for execution, it was his belief that Guru ji was false and his anger at Guru ji's popularity and the way hordes of people were converting to Sikhi (including muslims) - that made him issue the order. 

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20 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Jahangir's explicit mention of Guru ji's shaheedi and his reasons for issuing the order (in his Persian memoirs) wasn't known until fairly recently - so it is no wonder that apnay might have amplified hearsay or other minor, associated contemporary events which became 'common knowledge'. 

According to the one that issued the order for execution, it was his belief that Guru ji was false and his anger at Guru ji's popularity and the way hordes of people were converting to Sikhi (including muslims) - that made him issue the order. 

I'll be honest, having grown up around the Gurughar / Katha / vichaar scene, I'd never heard of anyone professing the belief that Guru Sahib's shaheedi was solely or at least weighted in favour of it being viewed as a domestic issue. Maybe it's a desi Punjabi belief that's grown in prominence over the past few decades via theological meddling on the part of agitators, because I'm scratching my head wondering how this issue has come about.

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5 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'll be honest, having grown up around the Gurughar / Katha / vichaar scene, I'd never heard of anyone professing the belief that Guru Sahib's shaheedi was solely or at least weighted in favour of it being viewed as a domestic issue. Maybe it's a desi Punjabi belief that's grown in prominence over the past few decades via theological meddling on the part of agitators, because I'm scratching my head wondering how this issue has come about.

I think the Chandhu issue might have been the commonly accepted one (in the community) for centuries. It's only when (probably Dr. Ganda Singh) opened up all the Persian sources of Sikh ithihaas (which had become inaccessible as a consequence of 'annexation' and the linguistic changes that took place in the panth during this period,- specifically learning angrezi over farsi). A lot of Persian sources that were generally unknown to the masses came out then. Heck, even Gurmukhi sources that were largely unknown to the masses came out too (like Sainapati's Gursobha). This is when people started to use contemporary or near contemporary sources to explore history. Problems come when traditionalists are hostile to sources that contradict the accepted narrative.  

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3 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

The rishta issue was a tiny, barely significant contributing factor in among many other greater issues. Who's arguing it was the only or major reason for shaheedi?

current crop of 'sikh history' books promoted by SGPC/ RSS sponsored  cr4p   distributed to new abhilakhees and in schools  . along with diminishing nauvin Patshah's shahdat because he was  a jewel thief .

As for the Jahangir letter I had read about it in the hemkunt press 12 book history series my Mum bought me in 1979, so people have known but not been explicit about the main actors.

 

Edited by jkvlondon

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11 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

well researched video

 

It's just a rehash of already known sources.

I'm always wary of videos like this which start with "the sangat have been fed lies upto now and I am here to tell the truth..."

This video is just this Singh's own opinion based on some textuao evidence.

There are one or two things in the video which need looking at, the first of which the Singh refers to Guru Sahib's shaheedi as being at the Beas River, when it was at the Ravi river. The other thing that the Singh says is that Guru Arjan Dev Ji lfet his body at the bank of the river. But if this was true there would have been a chikka where Guru Sahin was cremated. Guru Sahib's body has no such place. Gurdwara Dehra Sahib is where Guru Sahib was tortured. But not the place of jyoti jyoy. As my vidia Guru Told me Guru Sahib requested for ishnaan in the river but was washed away in the river, having undergone days of extreme torture.

In 2005 I was in Panjab and passing through Sirhind passed across mujadidi's mausoleum. I asked the caretaker there whether he knew about mujadidi's role in the shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. he totally denied it. Anyway the mausoleum is still there. There were Sikhs there when I went in as well.

Edited by chatanga1

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30 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

 

It's just a rehash of already known sources.

I'm always wary of videos like this which start with "the sangat have been fed lies upto now and I am here to tell the truth..."

This video is just this Singh's own opinion based on some textuao evidence.

There are one or two things in the video which need looking at, the first of which the Singh refers to Guru Sahib's shaheedi as being at the Beas River, when it was at the Ravi river. The other thing that the Singh says is that Guru Arjan Dev Ji lfet his body at the bank of the river. But if this was true there would have been a chikka where Guru Sahin was cremated. Guru Sahib's body has no such place. Gurdwara Dehra Sahib is where Guru Sahib was tortured. But not the place of jyoti jyoy. As my vidia Guru Told me Guru Sahib requested for ishnaan in the river but was washed away in the river, having undergone days of extreme torture.

In 2005 I was in Panjab and passing through Sirhind passed across mujadidi's mausoleum. I asked the caretaker there whether he knew about mujadidi's role in the shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. he totally denied it. Anyway the mausoleum is still there. There were Sikhs there when I went in as well.

he said that there are two theories surrounding Guru ji's ant sama , I personally believe they threw Guru ji into the river as it is in line with all the tortures preceding . Why would Guru ji ask for ishnaan on fifth day when he did not any other as far as sakhian tell?
This is the thing where the truth is not promoted you will get sikhs trusting folks that they should be wary of , this is how previous gursikhs were , fully aware of motivations of folks and their histories so they did not get misled .

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32 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

 

It's just a rehash of already known sources.

I'm always wary of videos like this which start with "the sangat have been fed lies upto now and I am here to tell the truth..."

 

Haven't watched all the video but I must say I did like the way they put advanced Gurmukhi words up with english translations throughout the presentation. Even though it seemed to be happening at (arguably) too frequent a rate (in terms of allowing someone to absorb that many new words in one go) - I think it is a brilliant way to help people increase vocabulary. 

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Haven't watched all the video but I must say I did like the way they put advanced Gurmukhi words up with english translations throughout the presentation. Even though it seemed to be happening at (arguably) too frequent a rate (in terms of allowing someone to absorb that many new words in one go) - I think it is a brilliant way to help people increase vocabulary. 

that's why I recommend this channel because it expands gurmukhi/old punjabi vocab  at  a fair click. Pause and rewind comes in handy

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Pretty much everything in the video comes from decades old research of Dr. Ganda Singh into the matter. So it's not any new discovery. But maybe the part of the panth that this channel caters for, aren't too closely associated with that type of modern Sikh historiography - hence it might be new to them?

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12 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Pretty much everything in the video comes from decades old research of Dr. Ganda Singh into the matter. So it's not any new discovery. But maybe the part of the panth that this channel caters for, aren't too closely associated with that type of modern Sikh historiography - hence it might be new to them?

most sikhs do not read sikh itihaas at all, they only know as much they happened across on gurpurabs or special programmes. Guaranteed if parents don't know then kids no chance . Do you know if Dr Ganda Singh's books are now copyright free ? If so can they be replicated outside India now? even translated?

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3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

most sikhs do not read sikh itihaas at all, they only know as much they happened across on gurpurabs or special programmes. Guaranteed if parents don't know then kids no chance . Do you know if Dr Ganda Singh's books are now copyright free ? If so can they be replicated outside India now? even translated?

I think most of his work is available for free online now.

Sikhbookclub.com smashed it in that respect. 

You have to remember that most of the professor's work was created during the colonial period, when the european style of 'history' heavily influenced his own approach to historiography. So it has the inherent positives and negatives of that approach embedded within in that respect.

I think precolonial Sikh historiography (as exemplified by Rattan Singh Bhangu) was much more honest and raw than the later 'sanitised' euro-christian-victorian era influenced ones.  

 

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54 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think most of his work is available for free online now.

Sikhbookclub.com smashed it in that respect. 

You have to remember that most of the professor's work was created during the colonial period, when the european style of 'history' heavily influenced his own approach to historiography. So it has the inherent positives and negatives of that approach embedded within in that respect.

I think precolonial Sikh historiography (as exemplified by Rattan Singh Bhangu) was much more honest and raw than the later 'sanitised' euro-christian-victorian era influenced ones.  

 

but  also personal prejudices colour the pre colonial accounts  need to crossreference against sakhian, gurbani, gurmat to get a more realistic view.

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