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Guru Arjan Dev ji di shaheedi - true culprits


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12 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Pretty much everything in the video comes from decades old research of Dr. Ganda Singh into the matter. So it's not any new discovery. But maybe the part of the panth that this channel caters for, aren't too closely associated with that type of modern Sikh historiography - hence it might be new to them?

most sikhs do not read sikh itihaas at all, they only know as much they happened across on gurpurabs or special programmes. Guaranteed if parents don't know then kids no chance . Do you know if Dr Ganda Singh's books are now copyright free ? If so can they be replicated outside India now? even translated?

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3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

most sikhs do not read sikh itihaas at all, they only know as much they happened across on gurpurabs or special programmes. Guaranteed if parents don't know then kids no chance . Do you know if Dr Ganda Singh's books are now copyright free ? If so can they be replicated outside India now? even translated?

I think most of his work is available for free online now.

Sikhbookclub.com smashed it in that respect. 

You have to remember that most of the professor's work was created during the colonial period, when the european style of 'history' heavily influenced his own approach to historiography. So it has the inherent positives and negatives of that approach embedded within in that respect.

I think precolonial Sikh historiography (as exemplified by Rattan Singh Bhangu) was much more honest and raw than the later 'sanitised' euro-christian-victorian era influenced ones.  

 

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54 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think most of his work is available for free online now.

Sikhbookclub.com smashed it in that respect. 

You have to remember that most of the professor's work was created during the colonial period, when the european style of 'history' heavily influenced his own approach to historiography. So it has the inherent positives and negatives of that approach embedded within in that respect.

I think precolonial Sikh historiography (as exemplified by Rattan Singh Bhangu) was much more honest and raw than the later 'sanitised' euro-christian-victorian era influenced ones.  

 

but  also personal prejudices colour the pre colonial accounts  need to crossreference against sakhian, gurbani, gurmat to get a more realistic view.

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29 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

but  also personal prejudices colour the pre colonial accounts  need to crossreference against sakhian, gurbani, gurmat to get a more realistic view.

Yeah, and just also accept that things have happened in the past that aren't always flattering. And that post-annexation influenced historiography involved cover-ups, and sanitised representations (a distinctly brit culture influence) whereas pre-annexation historiography (and even creative literary narratives from our Guru ji like CP) were much more open and honest about events and realities. 

That modern day puritan conservatism our people seem to demonstrate today doesn't seem to have been a feature of the early Khalsa (and wider Sikh) panth. 

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1 minute ago, dallysingh101 said:

Yeah, and just also accept that things have happened in the past that aren't always flattering. And that post-annexation influenced historiography involved cover-ups, and sanitised representations (a distinctly brit culture influence) whereas pre-annexation historiography (and even creative literary narratives from our Guru ji like CP) were much more open and honest about events and realities. 

That modern day puritan conservatism our people seem to demonstrate today doesn't seem to have been a feature of the early Khalsa (and wider Sikh) panth. 

actually I think true khalsa were hard core , will post some katha by Baba Waryam Singh ji talking about why Ranjit Singh's rule failed and the view of the khalsa of that time.

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7 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

actually I think true khalsa were hard core , will post some katha by Baba Waryam Singh ji talking about why Ranjit Singh's rule failed and the view of the khalsa of that time.

I think they were hardcore too, especially when it came to directly confronting external challenges even when these were dangerous. But I actually also think they were more realistic and open minded about the world and its realities than most modern amritdharis are today, if that makes sense. They can't have been closeted during all of the events of the 18th century surely. That's impossible. Even if (theoretically) some of our ancestors tried to closet their offspring, the events around them would have pretty much ensured that this didn't happen. 

Could today's arguable naivety be explained as a consequence of the colonial period leading to detaching the sangat from Dasam Bani and a lot of other thought provoking literature - and imposing a low quality 'education system' in its place. And promoting very simple-minded, rural cultural practices and thinking in the void too - for social-control and economic reasons?  

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4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think they were hardcore too, especially when it came to directly confronting external challenges even when these were dangerous. But I actually also think they were more realistic and open minded about the world and its realities than most modern amritdharis are today, if that makes sense. They can't have been closeted during all of the events of the 18th century surely. That's impossible. Even if (theoretically) some of our ancestors tried to closet their offspring, the events around them would have pretty much ensured that this didn't happen. 

Could today's arguable naivety be explained as a consequence of the colonial period leading to detaching the sangat from Dasam Bani and a lot of other thought provoking literature - and imposing a low quality 'education system' in its place. And promoting very simple-minded, rural cultural practices and thinking in the void too - for social-control and economic reasons?  

Or simply because most of us are chickens today and know we will be tortured by establishments if we dare speak against them. The Singhs pre 84 times were brave though. I think Advent of technology and comforts that came with it spoiled us and continues to spoil future generations of sikhs 

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15 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Jahangir's explicit mention of Guru ji's shaheedi and his reasons for issuing the order (in his Persian memoirs) wasn't known until fairly recently - so it is no wonder that apnay might have amplified hearsay or other minor, associated contemporary events which became 'common knowledge'. 

According to the one that issued the order for execution, it was his belief that Guru ji was false and his anger at Guru ji's popularity and the way hordes of people were converting to Sikhi (including muslims) - that made him issue the order. 

According to some new theories published recently as to what happened, some I think Sikh authors have even said the tatti tavi and sand tortures never happened and that chandu paid for the bail of guru ji from mughals and he locked up guru ji in his haveli and would torture guru sahib like beating him with shoes, etc. And that guru sahib passed away because of physical beatings. That's a very weird thing though and its a can of worms that threatens to shake up entire foundation of Sikhism.

Another baffling fact is that although shaheedi of guru Teg bahadur ji is a fact, shaheedi of Bhai mati das ji and two other sikhs nowhere mentioned in bhangus panth parkash. Considering the amount of pages he wrote slandering Banda Singh bahadur, I m surprised he would chose to, even by accident, to miss out on mentioning the 3 sikhs and also baba deep Singh ji incident

But discussing such things in open is opening a can of worms

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