Nishan Sahib, when did we start using the Khanda

[Redoptics]

2 hours ago, AkalkiFauj said:

WJKK WJKF

We started using the khanda when the british forcefully made us change the cutting of the Nishan Sahib. When the cutting was changed, the 3ft Kirpan was facing downwards, which ment surrender [as shown in the second picture]. Now the Khalsa never surrenders so we started to use a smaller Kirpan in our Nishan Sahibs. From that, we some how ended up using a Khanda in our nishan sahibs. Another thing is, is that there always used to be a Farla [cloth] tide to the top of the nishan. Nishan Sahibs used to be blue and there used to be a Teer [spear head]  on top of the Nishan Sahib. Only a few jathebandis like Taksal and Nihang Singhs follow this maryada

So do we go back to our roots, or keep what we have.

[Guest GuestSingh]

some of first few posts myt help a bit more wiv this

 

[AkalkiFauj]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:16 PM, Redoptics said:

So do we go back to our roots, or keep what we have.

I say go back to roots.

[Ranjeet01]

The Khanda as it at present seems to be clumped up version to make it look like a Coat of Arms, like you see in British symbols.

The Khanda (as it is now) it seems to have taken a far more prominent symbol in the last few decades, not so much before. 

It has become more like brand badge like the VW (voltsvagon )or mercedes. 

[AkalkiFauj]

Just now, Ranjeet01 said:

The Khanda as it at present seems to be clumped up version to make it look like a Coat of Arms, like you see in British symbols.

The Khanda (as it is now) it seems to have taken a far more prominent symbol in the last few decades, not so much before. 

It has become more like brand badge like the VW (voltsvagon )or mercedes. 

True. Company Khanda

[dallysingh101]

2 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The Khanda as it at present seems to be clumped up version to make it look like a Coat of Arms, like you see in British symbols.

The Khanda (as it is now) it seems to have taken a far more prominent symbol in the last few decades, not so much before. 

It has become more like brand badge like the VW (voltsvagon )or mercedes. 

What's interesting is that there was a short period when it wasn't exactly fixed like this, and if you seek, you can find variants e.g.  from 1914:

You are right, this one looks exactly like a coat of arms, notice how it still retains the dhaal symbol on the flags. Interesting. 

[dallysingh101]

On 7/22/2019 at 9:16 PM, Redoptics said:

So do we go back to our roots, or keep what we have.

Whenever we come back to being our own people again globally. The first thing we should do to symbolically announce this to the world is to bring back the true nishaan on every last Gurdwara in the world. 

I don't know when that time will come, but that will be a powerful statement. 

More powerful than renaming Calcutta Kolkata, Or Bombay Mumbai etc. 

[Ranjeet01]

4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

What's interesting is that there was a short period when it wasn't exactly fixed like this, and if you seek, you can find variants e.g.  from 1914:

You are right, this one looks exactly like a coat of arms, notice how it still retains the dhaal symbol on the flags. Interesting. 

Well, the Brits found a lot of things with Sikhi which they found very useful and made attempts not to necessarily dilute Sikhi because that may not work for their interests. 

What they may have done was to align our ways to a more British way.

There was definitely an attempt to Anglicise Sikhi. 

For example, the introduction of the harmonium as a musical instrument in kirtan.

It seems Victorian Britain which was a more religious rigid society recognised the hymn singing in our kirtan with their own ways of hymn singing so they tried to implement the organ with the harmonium.

The Sikhs of the time were already familiar with some of the European way of doing things. For example,  the Khalsa Army did have European Generals who implemented army formations, drill formations etc.

Our forefathers were probably more open minded in trying new ideas.

Question  is the Khanda could have been changed back to it's original form. Why wasn't it?

It could have been at anytime.

Perhaps it is not as important as we like to think.

[Guest GuestSingh]

3 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Well, the Brits found a lot of things with Sikhi which they found very useful and made attempts not to necessarily dilute Sikhi because that may not work for their interests. 

so wat were their interests? n y do u think they wudve found em useful? wasnt it to conquer n rule panjab for power n money?

panjab was an extremely rich region. as a foreign invader waging war against the enemy, y wudnt u wanna undertake any means necessary to spot any weaknesses/flaws in em n exploit it as best as possible to weaken the fight n resistance?

it wud make the war easier which wud reduce the number of dead. savin more of ur own men wud mean more of em get to return home, enjoy their pension n enable whitey to keep reproducing n lessen any chance of families dyin out. the extra manpower wud also enable em to loot more resources from asia n bring it all bk to the uk.

whos to whitey didnt wanna punish the enemy for attackin white supremacy by distorting their culture n leavin em confused for generations to cum?

think ur bein very kind to whitey. they r a wicked n devilish ppl.

Quote

What they may have done was to align our ways to a more British way.

There was definitely an attempt to Anglicise Sikhi.

but if u anglicise somethin ur goin to weaken the original ideology?

dnt think they were stupid to not knw this imo.

Quote

For example, the introduction of the harmonium as a musical instrument in kirtan.

It seems Victorian Britain which was a more religious rigid society recognised the hymn singing in our kirtan with their own ways of hymn singing so they tried to implement the organ with the harmonium.

cuz they knw it sounded awful n thts y we dnt see or hear it in the west. its very harsh, flat n montonoous.

but for some reason our lot seem to love the sound of it.

very strange.

Quote

The Sikhs of the time were already familiar with some of the European way of doing things. For example,  the Khalsa Army did have European Generals who implemented army formations, drill formations etc.

Our forefathers were probably more open minded in trying new ideas.

wud call it dhilla-puna myself.

think once u let something change, it sets a precedent n a begins thr 'domino' effect tht becomes difficult to stop.

maybe small groups who knew wat was happening werent able to keep this under control? the public proganda n instructions to the masses follow new rules or face the consequences?

Quote

Question  is the Khanda could have been changed back to it's original form. Why wasn't it?

It could have been at anytime.

Perhaps it is not as important as we like to think.

the same reason y the things tht were changed under foreign rule havent reverted bk to the original?

cuz our lot r still weak n confused in knowledge due to continued attacks by foreign enemies?

[Ranjeet01]

18 minutes ago, GuestSingh said:

so wat were their interests? n y do u think they wudve found em useful? wasnt it to conquer n rule panjab for power n money?

panjab was an extremely rich region. as a foreign invader waging war against the enemy, y wudnt u wanna undertake any means necessary to spot any weaknesses/flaws in em n exploit it as best as possible to weaken the fight n resistance?

it wud make the war easier which wud reduce the number of dead. savin more of ur own men wud mean more of em get to return home, enjoy their pension n enable whitey to keep reproducing n lessen any chance of families dyin out. the extra manpower wud also enable em to loot more resources from asia n bring it all bk to the uk.

whos to whitey didnt wanna punish the enemy for attackin white supremacy by distorting their culture n leavin em confused for generations to cum?

think ur bein very kind to whitey. they r a wicked n devilish ppl.

but if u anglicise somethin ur goin to weaken the original ideology?

dnt think they were stupid to not knw this imo.

cuz they knw it sounded awful n thts y we dnt see or hear it in the west. its very harsh, flat n montonoous.

but for some reason our lot seem to love the sound of it.

very strange.

wud call it dhilla-puna myself.

think once u let something change, it sets a precedent n a begins thr 'domino' effect tht becomes difficult to stop.

maybe small groups who knew wat was happening werent able to keep this under control? the public proganda n instructions to the masses follow new rules or face the consequences?

the same reason y the things tht were changed under foreign rule havent reverted bk to the original?

cuz our lot r still weak n confused in knowledge due to continued attacks by foreign enemies?

Whitey was already in Punjab before the took it over in 1849.

There were whiteys serving in the Khalsa Raj under Maharaj Ranjit Singh. 

These whiteys helped to develop the armies of the Khalsa Empire and helped turn it into one of the best armies in Asia.

We learnt things from whitey and they learnt things from us.

The British like all other Europeans wanted to come to India for it's riches. If they came for loot, what makes it worse than the looting that's been happening by the Mughals, Afghans, Arabs,  Persians and any other central asian marauders. 

After losing our empire, we siding with whitey only after 8 years helping them to defeat the mutiny.

These are Sikhs who felt the defeat more freshly. Who do you think they considered the bigger devils: whiteys of the East India Company or those backstabbing Indian troops who wanted to bring back the Mughal rule?

Playing devil's advocate. What wealth was looted from the ordinary peasant, how did their lives get worse in those 98 years they were under British rule compared to the centuries before?

What was looted from the Sikh Empire which we all revel about was that diamond we get obsessed about. That diamond that is kept in the Tower of London. 

It is the wealth of the elites, not the ordinary peasant.