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dallysingh101

A Guru Nanak Glossary - Christopher Shackle

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know, I'd be inclined (at first glance) to interpret this as:

Why would my complete Satguru make my munh (mind?) sad.

 

It seems like a rhetorical question?

I think the use of poora here is implying that Satguru is complete, in that they can give you all you need? That goes in line with the rest of the theme of the shabad too.

It seems very heavily psychologically based too, suggesting a transformation of psyche leading to contentment? 

।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ।

Yes I agree with it being a rhetorical question and that being complete means that they can do so much for us. But remember ਕਿਉ means how ਕਿਵੇਂ and not just why. Gurmukhi is different to Punjabi so we need to take that into account.

I think it translates to : O my mind how could you (possibly*) be sad, my Guru ji is perfect (i.e. he can't make mistakes, he is showing me the complete truth) 

Which leads on to the next Pangti about Guru Sahib's Vadiaye.

* I used possibly here as there is no reason to be sad and since ਕਿਉ can be used for ਕਿਵੇਂ Maharaj is making us question our feelings and how we could possibly be sad.

।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ।

Edited by RajKaregaKhalsa1

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5 hours ago, RajKaregaKhalsa1 said:

।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ।

Yes I agree with it being a rhetorical question and that being complete means that they can do so much for us. But remember ਕਿਉ means how ਕਿਵੇਂ and not just why. Gurmukhi is different to Punjabi so we need to take that into account.

I think it translates to : O my mind how could you (possibly*) be sad, my Guru ji is perfect (i.e. he can't make mistakes, he is showing me the complete truth) 

Which leads on to the next Pangti about Guru Sahib's Vadiaye.

* I used possibly here as there is no reason to be sad and since ਕਿਉ can be used for ਕਿਵੇਂ Maharaj is making us question our feelings and how we could possibly be sad.

।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ।

Very good,  but as I said its perception of the reader, we need our sangat to tell us the truth

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14 hours ago, Redoptics said:

Very good,  but as I said its perception of the reader, we need our sangat to tell us the truth

So kion manda akkiiya jitjame rajan is always incorrectly translated to english:

so why call her bad , when she gives birth to kings?

When we know old punjabi kion meant how not like modern punjabi why

So how can you call her evil, who gives birth to kings ?

 

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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

So kion manda akkiiya jitjame rajan is always incorrectly translated to english:

so why call her bad , when she gives birth to kings?

When we know old punjabi kion meant how not like modern punjabi why

So how can you call her evil, who gives birth to kings ?

 

।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ।

Some more examples.

।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹਿ।

Edited by RajKaregaKhalsa1
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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

So kion manda akkiiya jitjame rajan is always incorrectly translated to english:

so why call her bad , when she gives birth to kings?

When we know old punjabi kion meant how not like modern punjabi why

So how can you call her evil, who gives birth to kings ?

 

We get this from an online dictionary:

SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
Ki-u. 1. ਕਿਵੇਂ, ਕਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ। 2. ਕਿਸ ਲਈ। 3. ਬੇਸ਼ਕ (ਭਾਵ)। 1. how. 2. why. 3. may. 1. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ Japujee, Guru ʼnanak Dev, 21:15 (P: 5). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਜਿਸਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਸੋਈ ਝੂਝੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਕਿਉ ਰਹੀਐ ॥ (ਕਿਵੇਂ, ਕੀ ਲਾਭ ਹੈ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ). Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, 51, 3:1 (P: 334). 2. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 1, Sodar, 3, 1:1 (P: 9). 3. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਪਾਛੈ ਤੇ ਜਮੁ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਪਠਾਵਹੁ ॥ Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, 32, 3:2 (P: 329).

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
[P. pro.] Why 
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

 

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਕ੍ਰਿ. ਵਿ- ਕੈਸੇ. ਕਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ. "ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ?" (ਜਪੁ) "ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੀਐ". (ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮ ੧. ਮਃ ੩) "ਨਿਕਸਿਓ ਕਿਉਕੈ ਜਾਇ?" (ਸ. ਕਬੀਰ)। (2) ਕਿਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ. "ਸਮਝਤ ਨਹਿ ਕਿਉ ਗਵਾਰ?" (ਜੈਜਾ ਮਃ ੯).

 

So it can mean 'why' and 'how'? 

 

Here we have ਕਿਵ and ਕਿਉ in Japji Sahib. That should help clarify.

 

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ

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Here Professor Sahib Singh's interpretation:

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥

ਪਦ ਅਰਥ: ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ = ਕਿਉਂ ਕਰਿ, ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ। ਆਖਾ = ਮੈਂ ਆਖਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਬਿਆਨ ਕਰਾਂ, ਮੈ ਕਹਿ ਸਕਾਂ। ਸਾਲਾਹੀ = ਮੈਂ ਸਾਲਾਹਾਂ, ਮੈਂ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਕਰਾਂ। ਕਿਉ = ਕਿਉਂ ਕਰਿ, ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ। ਵਰਨੀ = ਮੈਂ ਵਰਣਨ ਕਰਾਂ, ਸਭੁ ਕੋ = ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ। ਆਖਣਿ ਆਖੈ = ਆਖਣ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ, ਆਖਣ ਦਾ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ = ਇਕ ਦੂਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਬਣ ਬਣ ਕੇ, ਇਕ ਜਣਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਦੂਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ। ਦੂ = ਤੋਂ।

ਅਰਥ: ਮੈਂ ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ) ਦੱਸਾਂ, ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਾਂ, ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ) ਵਰਣਨ ਕਰਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਮਝ ਸਕਾਂ? ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ) ਦੱਸਣ ਦਾ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਪਰ ਦੱਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ) ।

Here's the Faridkot steek:

ਤਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕੇ ਉਤਪਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਕੋ ਕਿਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਕਥਨ ਕਰੂੰ। ਪੁਨਾ ਤਿਸ ਕੇ ਪਾਲਨਾ ਕਰਨੇ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਕੋ ਕਿਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਬਰਨਨ ਕਰੂੰ ਅਰੁ ਕਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਾਣਾ ਕੇ ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਮੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ (ਸਾਲਾਹੀ) ਉਪਮਾ ਕੈਸੇ ਕਰੂੰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਹੇ ਸਿਧੋ (ਆਖਣਿ) ਅਖ੍ਯਾਨ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਕਥਾ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਕਰਨੇ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਏਕ ਸੇ ਏਕ ਵਡਾ ਬਣ ਕਰ ਕਹਿਤਾ ਹੈ ਪ੍ਰੰਤੂ ਅੰਤੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾਵਤਾ ਹੈ ॥ ❀ਤਾਂਤੇ ਏਹੀ ਜਾਨੋ ਜੈਸਾ ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹੈ ਤੈਸੀ ਵਡੀ ਉਸ ਕੀ (ਨਾਈ) ਵਡਾਈ ਹੈ ਕ੍ਯੋਂਕਿ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਹੋ ਸਕਤਾ ਹੈ॥ ਭਾਵ ਸੱਤ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਹੈ। ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਜੋ ਕੋਈ (ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ) ਅਪਣੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਨਤਾ ਹੈ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਏਹੁ ਸਮਝਤਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਕਹਿ ਸਕਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਵਾ ਸਭ ਕਾਮ ਕਰ ਸਕਤਾ ਹੂੰ। ਐਸਾ ਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਆਗੇ ਪ੍ਰਲੋਕ ਮੈਂ ਜਾਇਕਰ ਸੋਭਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾਵਤਾ। ਭਾਵ ਏਹੁ ਕਿ ਨੀਰਗਤਿ ਕੋ ਪਾਵਤਾ ਹੈ॥੨੧॥ ❀ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: ਇਸ ਰਚਨਾ ਮੇ ਤੋ ੭ ਪਤਾਲ ਔਰ ੭ ਅਕਾਸ ਐਸਾ ਨਿਜਮੁ ਕੀਆ ਹੈ ਫਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ ਕਾ ਉਣੰਜਾ ਕ੍ਰੋੜ ਜੋਜਨ ਤਥਾ ਪਰਬਤਾਦਿਕੋਂ ਕਾ ਭੀ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਹੈ ਆਪ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਹਿ ਸਕਤਾ ਏਹਿ ਕੈਸੇ ਜਾਨਾ ਜਾਵੇ॥ ਉੱਤਰ:

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10 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

We get this from an online dictionary:

SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
Ki-u. 1. ਕਿਵੇਂ, ਕਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ। 2. ਕਿਸ ਲਈ। 3. ਬੇਸ਼ਕ (ਭਾਵ)। 1. how. 2. why. 3. may. 1. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ Japujee, Guru ʼnanak Dev, 21:15 (P: 5). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਜਿਸਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਸੋਈ ਝੂਝੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਕਿਉ ਰਹੀਐ ॥ (ਕਿਵੇਂ, ਕੀ ਲਾਭ ਹੈ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ). Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, 51, 3:1 (P: 334). 2. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ Raga Aaasaa 1, Sodar, 3, 1:1 (P: 9). 3. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਪਾਛੈ ਤੇ ਜਮੁ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਪਠਾਵਹੁ ॥ Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, 32, 3:2 (P: 329).

1.how, by what way/method

2 for what reason

3.without doubt (literal of beshak)

 

SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary
[P. pro.] Why 
SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA.

Simplistic and wrong.

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਕ੍ਰਿ. ਵਿ- ਕੈਸੇ. ਕਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ. "ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ?" (ਜਪੁ) "ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੀਐ". (ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮ ੧. ਮਃ ੩) "ਨਿਕਸਿਓ ਕਿਉਕੈ ਜਾਇ?" (ਸ. ਕਬੀਰ)। (2) ਕਿਸ ਵਾਸਤੇ. "ਸਮਝਤ ਨਹਿ ਕਿਉ ਗਵਾਰ?" (ਜੈਜਾ ਮਃ ੯).

 

So it can mean 'why' and 'how'? 

 

Here we have ਕਿਵ and ਕਿਉ in Japji Sahib. That should help clarify.

 

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ

 

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1 minute ago, jkvlondon said:

 

I think this just highlights how much attention we need to pay. Gurbani does use synonyms, and the same words do have  different meanings at different places. If we don't acknowledge that, we're also simplifying.

 

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Just now, dallysingh101 said:

I think this just highlights how much attention we need to pay. Gurbani does use synonyms, and the same words do have  different meanings at different places. If we don't acknowledge that, we're also simplifying.

 


true , that's why we all need to be meticulous and look beyond what we feel is the simplest arth because Guru Sahiban was/is talking to us in a multifacted and multidepth way always and despite what your average Gora thinks English is definitely unsubtle for such concepts.

 

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2 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:


true , that's why we all need to be meticulous and look beyond what we feel is the simplest arth because Guru Sahiban was/is talking to us in a multifacted and multidepth way always and despite what your average Gora thinks English is definitely unsubtle for such concepts.

 

That's becoming more and more apparent.

So in this tuk, do people think ਕਿਵ and ਕਿਉ have the same meaning? 

 

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

That's becoming more and more apparent.

So in this tuk, do people think ਕਿਵ and ਕਿਉ have the same meaning? 

 

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ 

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥

If I just postulate that kiv means how, and keeo means why, this would give us:

 

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ 

How could I speak [of Waheguru], how could I praise [Waheguru], why would I give such a statement, how could I know [Waheguru]

Nanak says, everyone tries to speak [of Waheguru] each trying to be wiser than the other

 

Then we have:

  ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥   ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥  

Grand is the Lord, Grand is naam, whatever [Waheguru] does, happens

Nanak: If someone [thinks] that they know themselves, they will not receive splendour when they go forward [after this life?]

 

 

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2 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

If I just postulate that kiv means how, and keeo means why, this would give us:

 

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ 

How could I speak [of Waheguru], how could I praise [Waheguru], why would I give such a statement, how could I know [Waheguru]

Nanak says, everyone tries to speak [of Waheguru] each trying to be wiser than the other

 

Then we have:

  ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥   ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥  

Grand is the Lord, Grand is naam, whatever [Waheguru] does, happens

Nanak: If someone [thinks] that they know themselves, they will not receive splendour when they go forward [after this life?]

 

 

There is a diference in aspect  I think like you hint at

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ 

By what action could  I say, by which means could I contemplate and expound (Akal purakh's) praise and by what method could I know Waheguru?

Guru Sahiban answer comes  which you explain Well , does the vadi nahi have an active and expansive aspect (kind of like the ever continuing onkaar)?

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12 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

There is a diference in aspect  I think like you hint at

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ 

By what action could  I say, by which means could I contemplate and expound (Akal purakh's) praise and by what method could I know Waheguru?

Guru Sahiban answer comes  which you explain Well , does the vadi nahi have an active and expansive aspect (kind of like the ever continuing onkaar)?

A lot of the traditional interpretations have translated ਨਾਈ itself to mean grandness - that doesn't make sense (ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ trans: great is [Waheguru's] greatness). I think naam fits better? And it does work solidly in context, explaining how naam mysteriously and unfathomably is the source of creation. A naam that is inexpressible and can't be contained within human expression. 

???

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

A lot of the traditional interpretations have translated ਨਾਈ itself to mean grandness - that doesn't make sense (ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ trans: great is [Waheguru's] greatness). I think naam fits better? And it does work solidly in context, explaining how naam mysteriously and unfathomably is the source of creation. A naam that is inexpressible and can't be contained within human expression. 

???

Naam is reality or hakikat and nahi is an active iteration of the naam Upon which everything relies I have a feel this is the way my heartlinked it to onkaar...what do you reckon?

P.s. I understand the mood of the pangti as bismaad roop of nahi hitting the soul and the heart asking the rhetorical questions to which Guruji warns us not kidding ourselves that we could know under our own jor

Edited by jkvlondon

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