GURMAT SANGEET / RAAG KIRTAN / DILRUBA - JORI = LESSONS HELP

[BhForce]

Just now, MisterrSingh said:

Let me think about it some more. I'm somewhere in the middle of understanding the need to reward the instructors for imparting their knowledge, but also realising the nature of how our cultural habits work against us in areas where there's very little immediate enrichment and material value. It's an interesting subject.

OK, that's reasonable. And I do acknowledge that the ideal is for us to pass on knowledge on a nishkaam (voluntary/free) basis.

But I just can't see how that would be possible. I am certainly open to knowing (as above) how someone can possibly learn classical raag sangeet with 60 raags plus tabla taals and also have a good singing voice in their spare time and also make time to teach somebody else's snotty, ungrateful kids for free.

[MisterrSingh]

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

OK, that's reasonable. And I do acknowledge that the ideal is for us to pass on knowledge on a nishkaam (voluntary/free) basis.

But I just can't see how that would be possible. I am certainly open to knowing (as above) how someone can possibly learn classical raag sangeet with 60 raags plus tabla taals and also have a good singing voice in their spare time and also make time to teach somebody else's snotty, ungrateful kids for free.

I think for that transaction (between teacher and student) to reach and fulfil its most fruitful outcome, it requires exemplary character and personality on both sides, else I feel the exchange between the two parties might be rewarding for both parties (dependent on respective wants), but the greater moral and perhaps spiritual affects of imparting that knowledge is, in my opinion, devalued if the individuals involved in that transaction are unworthy or lacking in some way, particularly in the case of this subject as it relates to ensuring a unique art to a particular culture or group, does not gradually die out. Does that sound judgemental? Perhaps. I don't think that's necessarily a negative each and every time.

[Guest guest]

14 hours ago, BhForce said:

No, it is not "forbidden" to learn from a non-Sikh. Of course, you should never bow to the Namdhari "Guru". But that "Guru" is not going to travel from Bhaini in Punjab to England to ask you to matha-tek to him.

It's no more forbidden to learn music from a Namdhari than it is to learn English from a Christian.

Finally, if it would be forbidden for an Amritdhari to learn from a Namdhari, it would equally forbidden from anybody who calls himself a Sikh.

i disagree.  the rules for Amritdharis are more strict/elevated then for others.  old rehits don't even allow mixing with muslims ("turks").  this is because you take on the traits of those you mix with.

aside from their belief in a continuing succession fo Gurus, the Naamdharis are very similar to mainstream Khalsa rehit, hence the more caution because the more pronounced the heresy due to similarity.  

another example would be guidance against mixing with Minas during Gurujis' times.

[Guest guest]

your analogy about learning English from a Christian is not appropriate.  firstly because you wouldnt be going to church to learn it, secondly because English is outside of your religious sphere as a sikh (you are not learning it for worship purposes)

then again your analogy proves my point, because learning English from missionary schools means that the Protestant mindset influenced Singh Sabha theory, right?

 

 

[ipledgeblue]

On 7/13/2019 at 1:45 AM, Guest Sunny Singh said:

 

I am totally lost in terms of knowing where to go to seek help for learning and I would really want to become a student of a Ustaad / teacher and dedicate myself to being a loyal student.

 

Just checked out Ramgharia gurdwara Slough and went to a Raag Keertan session. so they definitely do classes there on Sundays at 12pm.

[puzzled]

Tabla lessons are common but stringed instruments seem to be disappearing and becoming more exclusive 

i once ordered a Tumbi from online lol   tried following online tutorials but found it to difficult haha    its gathering dust in my cupboard now lol 

i wanna learn tabla some point   stringed instrument is just a far away distant dream for me lol 

[Guest GuestSingh]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:14 AM, BhForce said:

I don't know what I'd call him, but do you have any example of such a person? Or are you just engaging in pure speculation?

Again, this "well-learned and highly accomplished ustaad #1", how in the world did he learn sixty raags for free and also become "accomplished" in his spare time? How did he "accomplish" so much (training his voice, doing sargams, writing bandishes, learning tabla taals), while also farming his fields or making furniture to sell or tailoring clothes?

 

there is someone but dno the full details of how they learnt. but tht shudnt be dismissed as speculation. the same ustaad was taught by their parent to a limited extent so this does happen n nw his kids have become his shagird.

anyway my point was abt learning all raag on stringed instruments. ur definition of 'accomplished' inc. more than mine.

again if u can start from an extremely young age n have natural ability then u can progress far quicker than doin a raag a yr imo.

[BhForce]

On 8/9/2019 at 4:07 PM, Guest guest said:

your analogy about learning English from a Christian is not appropriate.  firstly because you wouldnt be going to church to learn it, secondly because English is outside of your religious sphere as a sikh (you are not learning it for worship purposes)

Bro, what are you talking about? A lot of Sikh (and other non-Sikh, non-Christian kids) go to Church of England and other such schools.

As long as you're not worshiping Jesus, I fail to see anything wrong in that. 

In case you think that's just "modern" squishy Sikhs sending their kids to non-Sikh teachers, Guru Sahib's parents sent them to religious instructors for teaching them Punjabi or other Indian languages (Pandits) and Mullahs for learning Persian.

[BhForce]

On 8/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Guest guest said:

i disagree.  the rules for Amritdharis are more strict/elevated then for others.  

Bro, that is a wrong understanding of Sikhi.

There are not "different rules" for Amritdharis vs everyone else.

There's one set of rules. It's just that Amritdharis actually follow them (or are supposed to).

There's simply no rule you can't learn some sort of vidia (education) from a non-Sikh.

On 8/9/2019 at 4:02 PM, Guest guest said:

old rehits don't even allow mixing with muslims ("turks").

I agree with not mixing with people that will harm your Sikhi.

But we're not talking about "hanging out" with your Namdhari teacher. He's simply teaching you music.

I should note that I'm simply talking about taking lessons from Namdhari (or Hindu, or Muslim) music teachers. Actually going into a Namdhari temple or mosque might require additional reflection.

[ipledgeblue]

On 8/4/2019 at 11:58 PM, Guest guest said:

is is Namdhari sings who specialise in raag kirtan?  

it might be forbidden for you if you are amritdhari (because of their beliefs).  but one possibility is to find out if there is a naamdhari place in london.  they might teach you for free.

and also, as your next post alludes to, naamdharis also take khanday dee pahul, and actually most of them do compared to "us" mainstream sikhs.

On 8/10/2019 at 12:02 AM, Guest guest said:

aside from their belief in a continuing succession fo Gurus, the Naamdharis are very similar to mainstream Khalsa rehit, hence the more caution because the more pronounced the heresy due to similarity.  

naamdharis are also much closer to rehit than some of these jathabandis we have now corrupt the panth since colonial times. However naamdharis are missing the kshatriya rehit of khalsa, ie the warrior maryada.

11 hours ago, BhForce said:

Bro, what are you talking about? A lot of Sikh (and other non-Sikh, non-Christian kids) go to Church of England and other such schools.

As long as you're not worshiping Jesus, I fail to see anything wrong in that. 

In case you think that's just "modern" squishy Sikhs sending their kids to non-Sikh teachers, Guru Sahib's parents sent them to religious instructors for teaching them Punjabi or other Indian languages (Pandits) and Mullahs for learning Persian.

I think a lot of "sikh" children would easily get influenced by christian schools due to lack of sikhi knowledge, and this includes those who go to these schools in India as well

11 hours ago, BhForce said:

Bro, that is a wrong understanding of Sikhi.

There are not "different rules" for Amritdharis vs everyone else.

There's one set of rules. It's just that Amritdharis actually follow them (or are supposed to).

There's simply no rule you can't learn some sort of vidia (education) from a non-Sikh.

I agree with not mixing with people that will harm your Sikhi.

Yes, Khalsa sikhs used to learn from other sikh sampradaiye as well when it came to spiritual gyaan and sikhi knowledge. Obviously for learning there are no strict rules, however other rules are different for khalsa sikhs as they need to follow the military rules as well compared to sehajdhari "civilian" sikhs.

And this is funny, but would learning from a harmonium teacher harm your sikhi, as it takes you away from learning sikh/Gurus' instruments? I would find it harmful for someone to teach that crazy keertan which plays at many rehnsbhais,