Dasam Granth

[GavinSingh]

1 hour ago, MrDoaba said:

How many of those people producing that content have undertaken proper Vidya? Do you know what their credentials are? Education in Sikhi comes in stages; there is a curriculum which has syllabi. We don't just jump into a text which is advanced because, well, it is beyond our comprehension. If you were an ESOL student would you attempt a PhD in English Literature? The answer is no. This is exactly what the critics do though.

How can you expect to understand such an esoteric work when you're thinking on such a low level?

That's because you have already filled yourself with bias through those videos and articles. They have coloured your understanding of Charitopakhyan. You obviously know English which means you went to school and so must have analysed books and poems...you know that it's not a straightforward task and rarely black and white (pretty sure you had lightbulb moments, no?). If I told you what I assumed a particular poem was about beforehand, you would read it as such. Now imagine if I had no qualifications to be providing you with an analysis but I still did, your opinions and assumptions would be badly flawed. Pre-conceived notions are never good.

You've been reading it with a singular (false) viewpoint without a grasp on the original text or its language.

It isn't the reason lol. You are just reading it like that: clearly without any foundational studies whatsoever. If you go back to my first paragraph you'll eventually realise what I'm saying is that Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji isn't for just any tom, d!ck, and harry; ones needs a certain avastha to fathom its content. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji knows all which is why they refused a request to merge their Granth with Sri Adi Granth Sahib (later Satguru), but yet still gave Gurgaddi to SDGSJ:

ਸੁਣੋ ਭਾਈ ਸਿਖੋ । ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੋ । ਦਸੇ ਮਹਲ ਇਕ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।
Listen Sikh Brothers! Recognize Baba Nanak as a true Saint, this is truth. In the ten forms [10 Guru's], recognize Baba Nanak in all of them.

ਦਸਵਾਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਗੱਦੀ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਹੈ ਗਿਆ ।
The Tenth King has given the Guruship to the Granth Sahib.

ਬਿਨਾਂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੇ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈਨਿ ਦੁਇ ਸਕੇ ਭਾਈ ।
Without the Granth there is nothing else, the Granth Sahib has its form in two brothers.

ਇਕ ਹੈ ਵਡਾ ਇਕ ਛੋਟਾ ਕਹਾਈ ।੨੬੫।
[Recognize] One as larger [brother, which is Adi Granth] and one as smaller [brother, Dasam Granth].

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸੋਲ੍ਹਾ ਸੈ ਅਠਵੰਜਾ ਸੇ ਗਏ । ਤਬ ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਲਏ ।
In 1658 Bikrami the Adi Granth took birth [was created].

ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਧਾਰਾ ।
In the house of Guru Arjan Dev Ji the Granth Sahib took its birth.

ਦਾਇਆ ਸੀ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਖਿਡਾਵਣਹਾਰਾ ।੨੬੬।
Bhai Gurdas, with the blessings [of Guru Arjan], was the scribe.

ਛੋਟਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ, ਜਨਮੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ।
The smaller [brother] Granth, took birth in the Tenth King's house.

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ-ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ ।
In 1755 Bikrami [it was born], [Guru Ji wrote it] under many names [Das Gobind, Syaam, Ram, Kaal etc].

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ । ਹੱਥੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਖਿਡਾਇਆ ।
[Guru Gobind Singh] Sahib had much love for this scripture, He himself hand wrote it.

ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸੁ, ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ ।੨੬੭।
Sikhs did a plea [towards Guru Gobind Singh] to merge Adi Granth with Dasam Granth.

ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, "ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਡ ।"
[Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said, "Granth Sahib is the Adi, and [Dasam Granth] is my play."

ਨਾਲ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੇ ਭੇਦ ।
The wonderous beloved Guru Gobind Singh did not merge them together, who can understand this secret of Guru Sahib? [of why they were kept separate]

ਸੋ, ਦੋਨੋ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਰ ਜਾਨੋ ।
So, recognize both Granth Sahib's as Guru and brothers.

ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ, ਗੁਟਕੇ-ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪੋਤ੍ਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।੨੬੮।
The larger [Adi Granth] received the Tika [Guruship], the smaller gutka-pothian recognize them as sons and grandson.

Bansavalinama, 1769

 

You say that the learning from Charitropakhyan is miniscule compared to SGGS so I'm assuming you have done Santhiya including grammar anaylsis (Vyakaran), etymology analysis (Nirukta), learned the historical contexts (Uthanka) of all Gurbani and the associated sakhis (Ithiaas), learned the complete process of doing arth, and on top of all this truly understood the message of Gurbani?

But hell even without all this, if you actually put some effort into understanding Adi Bani, you would realise that so many of the messages contained within it are elaborated upon in Dasam Bani including Charitropakhyan.

I shouldn't have to mentioned this but I'm sure you know what Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankaar is - we can all say "ohh yeahh I know all about these, I know we should fight them!" but this presumes that you have life figured out and don't need examples to put things in context for you. However, this is the "glory, wisdom, and spiritual grace" of Satguru; They know how our buddhi works, they know what moorakhs we are, and they know what manukhi jeevan entails; they know that this is Kalyug, and hence have provided wisdom in a format which pertains to real life.

I can easily provide you with a list of rules that says don't do this or that, and I can even provide you with reasoning for each of those rules which is how Maryada is formed. But Guru Sahib knows that in order to apply these practically, such matters need supplementary material. The human race hasn't gotten this far just by merely following some rules; it's gotten this far because of people who were ignorant of those rules/broke those rules and what transpired as a result i.e. examples, lessons learned. This is how we've become intellectually deveoloped. This is how law is created, this is how medical research has lead to discoveries to name a couple.

Remember, Sikhs are supposed to stay in Sadh Sangat, stay away from certain situations. Guru Sahib is giving us all this Gyaan as a preventative measure because we will undoubtedly find ourselves in these types of situations - and - so we understand the human condition lest we wish to become entangled in Kalyug even if we follow the rules. Maharaaj doesn't want us to go out, get ill and then take medicine (even though many do this), they want us to take the vaccine - and this is what Uche Suche Gursikhs do, this is how pure-beings guard themselves against adharam and avidya....their jeevan doesn't involve them always going out, getting burned and then saying "Oh I learned that the hard way".

Now lets say for example that someone grew up in a good sheltered environment, with a good family, and with good strict morals and values, in a nice community. Now this person is an adult, he has no one around him, no family or friends and has to go out into the big scary world. Remember he was a good kid, stuck to the rules, never did anything bad, it didn't even cross his mind, none of these topics ever came up, no examples, no stories or lessons. He just followed the rules because he had to. How on earth would he know of the sorts of things in Charitropakhyan (which are not only sexual)? He's never heard them before or how they play out in real life. He has no examples of this. No way to relate. How will he guard himself and be smart? How will he even know he's being played in some way? How will he know what to look out for? Oh yeah, Satguru!

If Guru Sahib can't talk to us about these matters then who can?!! Who are we supposed to turn to?!! Guru Sahib imparts spiritual wisdom and worldly. Dhan Kalgidhar Swami!

If we take a look outside of Sikhi you would see the same sort of thing. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishan Bhagwan imparts many deep spiritual concepts and teachings to Arjuna; many of these aren't unlike the messages within Gurbani. In order to understand these teachings further and with context one must look at Mahabharat, which contains morals and examples. If one looked at Mahabharat and skipped the Gita (the spiritual foundation), it would be a useless endeavour - which is what you seem to be doing.

Krishan Bhagwan also says those who find faults with the teachings, are lacking in knowledge and have no sense of discrimination/discernment (between pure and the impure, the righteous and the unrighteous, Guru and Sikh), thus they disregard teachings and bring about their own ruin. They have no sharda, and due to ahankaar, kaam, krodh, whatever the intellect cannot comprehend at present, it often rejects as incorrect. They are lacking in Nimrata and trust in the Guru.

The same is echoed in Sikhi; there are countless Shabads that refer to the above as well as what one gains from the Guru's teachings and wisdom. You should look it up.

That's a fallacious argument. You can't verify authorship without examining the content (which you are blatantly not ready for) and/or looking at historical references (which I have provided).

If you enrolled in a traditional Sikh centre of learning, a Vidyala, you would have the answers to your questions. There is need for a teacher, an Ustaad/Gurdev to walk you through everything and to frame everything for you correctly.

And before you drag Baba's and Mahapurkhs into this, you should go and look at their educational record.

Nothing is gained by casting doubt on Guru Sahib. It's your own ignorance and inability to understand that is leading you to these conclusions.

That's because that's not how one learns this. It isn't for kids to begin with lol. Do your parents teach advanced sociology or moral philosophy classes at your house for you? I think not.

Even still, I could argue that Guru Sahib is our father

 

I'm at a loss...first people say "where does it say that", then they say "why does it say that and what's the reason" - You provide the reasoning but now the problem is there's too much detail for their sensitivities! Lmao!

Having said all this, some people just simply have too strong a Victorian/Christian attitude to anything even remotely sexual in nature...."God forbid ess eee exx is mentioned in our religion, blimey!". It's pointless for these people to approach anything of this sort until they have shed this mindset.

 

Maharaaj Samatt Bakshan

Gurbar Akaal!

Some great points in here Bhaji. Will have a look through at them in detail and form a response.  

Just one quick point - Does  Chirittar 3 translate as the english version into something like this -   the young lady was having it with the slender chap, they were interrupted by her old fat husband. Slender lover runs off. As she gets up the young mans semen drips onto the floor , when the old man asks what is that ?  The woman responds by saying in very basic terms - I was wet thinking about you, thats why its wet on the floor.  

Is this completely wrong ? Just want to understand if this translation is wrong. 

Thanks 

[chatanga1]

2 hours ago, GavinSingh said:

Some great points in here Bhaji. Will have a look through at them in detail and form a response.  

Just one quick point - Does  Chirittar 3 translate as the english version into something like this -   the young lady was having it with the slender chap, they were interrupted by her old fat husband. Slender lover runs off. As she gets up the young mans semen drips onto the floor , when the old man asks what is that ?  The woman responds by saying in very basic terms - I was wet thinking about you, thats why its wet on the floor.  

Is this completely wrong ? Just want to understand if this translation is wrong. 

Thanks 

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17474-sri-charitropakhyan-sahib-jee-series-charitar-3/?page=4

 

Read a more accurate translation in the link above. About halfway down page. 

 

I had already posted this link for your learning.