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The old Punjabi doesn’t have the letter Z it is derived from Farsi.

The new modern Punjabi does have Z.

Is is Okay to use it in Gurbani.

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8 minutes ago, Dsinghdp said:

The old Punjabi doesn’t have the letter Z it is derived from Farsi.

The new modern Punjabi does have Z.

Is is Okay to use it in Gurbani.

When you say 'modern' you're talking about the introduction of Z (jajaa pairh bindhi) happening under dashmesh pita's time. So not exactly modern.

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3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

When you say 'modern' you're talking about the introduction of Z (jajaa pairh bindhi) happening under dashmesh pita's time. So not exactly modern.

you cannot pronounce Jaap Sahib correctly without the pair bindi part of the Painti so yes totally parvan to use . e.g. ke Hazara Hazoor he

 

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It's very important to know how to pronounce zazza (and where and which Bani's), but I have heard many people who don't have shudh uchaaran decide to put it where they think it goes, where it most definitely does not. For example:

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜ਼ਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਰੀ

 

Not only is this irritating but it's also wrong. Santhiya is jaroori; don't make up your own rules.

Edited by MrDoaba

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1 hour ago, MrDoaba said:

It's very important to know how to pronounce zazza (and where and which Bani's), but I have heard many people who don't have shudh uchaaran decide to put it where they think it goes, where it most definitely does not. For example:

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜ਼ਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਰੀ

 

Not only is this irritating but it's also wrong. Santhiya is jaroori; don't make up your own rules.

wud u recommend bhagat jaswant singh ji to those unfamiliar wiv the concept or unable to find an ustaad in their area?

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9 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

It's very important to know how to pronounce zazza (and where and which Bani's), but I have heard many people who don't have shudh uchaaran decide to put it where they think it goes, where it most definitely does not. For example:

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜ਼ਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਰੀ

 

Not only is this irritating but it's also wrong. Santhiya is jaroori; don't make up your own rules.

I agree. Just go with the flow.

Don’t get caught up with where to add a Z. If you use it then and now it’s fine.

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9 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

wud u recommend bhagat jaswant singh ji to those unfamiliar wiv the concept or unable to find an ustaad in their area?

I've only heard a few of the recordings (which are very shudh) but yes most definitely given Bhagat Ji's jeevan.

Nihung Santhiya also give lessons via Skype. Gurmat Veechar has some recordings of Santhiya from Taksal as well. Both excellent.

I'm not being biased but really Taksal are the leaders in Santhiya, and a lot of the good Ustaads in the UK are ones who have learned directly from them.

You will still find some minor differences depending on which branch of Taksal the Ustaad has learnt from, and some other small variables but it's generally the same standard. One sorta big example that comes to mind is the pronunciation of pairi akhars; some don't put emphasis on these (imo you should though).

Occasionally people try to learn from complete recordings e.g. the famous Bhai Jarnail Singh and while these are really epic recordings, you can't learn from them...they're still worth listening to just familiarise yourself however. Some recordings by Namdharis on Youtube too which are shudh.

 

27 minutes ago, Dsinghdp said:

I agree. Just go with the flow.

Don’t get caught up with where to add a Z. If you use it then and now it’s fine.

I'm not sure I agree...the way you have worded your post makes it seem like it's not important. You should only use it where it is indicated.

Edited by MrDoaba

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15 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

I've only heard a few of the recordings (which are very shudh) but yes most definitely given Bhagat Ji's jeevan.

Nihung Santhiya also give lessons via Skype. Gurmat Veechar has some recordings of Santhiya from Taksal as well. Both excellent.

I'm not being biased but really Taksal are the leaders in Santhiya, and a lot of the good Ustaads in the UK are ones who have learned directly from them.

You will still find some minor differences depending on which branch of Taksal the Ustaad has learnt from, and some other small variables but it's generally the same standard. One sorta big example that comes to mind is the pronunciation of pairi akhars; some don't put emphasis on these (imo you should though).

Occasionally people try to learn from complete recordings e.g. the famous Bhai Jarnail Singh and while these are really epic recordings, you can't learn from them...they're still worth listening to just familiarise yourself however. Some recordings by Namdharis on Youtube too which are shudh.

 

I'm not sure I agree...the way you have worded your post makes it seem like it's not important. You should only use it where it is indicated.

Learning to pronounce words correctly is good.

But the message is more important.

 

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@Dsinghdp You won't understand the message if you can't pronounce the words correctly! In any case, santhiya is not just about pronunciation.

It's silly to compare santhiya and learning arth; both are equally important in their own right!

When learning to read in school, they always teach you how to actually read clearly as well as teach you pronunciation and elocution first. This is even when we don't yet know defintions and meanings.

Why should it be different for Bani? If anything this applies more with Gurbani because it's pavitar.

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On 10/3/2019 at 5:29 PM, Dsinghdp said:

The old Punjabi doesn’t have the letter Z it is derived from Farsi.

The new modern Punjabi does have Z.

Is is Okay to use it in Gurbani.

If Z dose not come in Gurbani, then no

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On 10/3/2019 at 10:17 PM, MrDoaba said:

It's very important to know how to pronounce zazza (and where and which Bani's), but I have heard many people who don't have shudh uchaaran decide to put it where they think it goes, where it most definitely does not. For example:

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜ਼ਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਰੀ

 

Not only is this irritating but it's also wrong. Santhiya is jaroori; don't make up your own rules.

Your first example is correct. It means ਰਜ਼ਾ, hukam de razza vich chalna. While it isn't needed as the meaning still stands, but it's nice to use the original pronunciation of the word.

Second example is odd, there is santhiya that teaches where to pronounce pair bindi and not to.

For example in Jaap Sahib:

ਨਮੋ ਰਾਜਸੰ ਤਾਮਸੰ ਸ਼ਾਤ ਰੂਪੇ ॥

This is wrong, because it a reference to Rajo, Tamo, and Sato gun, correct pronunciation is: ਸਾਤ. (Notice there is no Bindi on Kanna Either)

But later on in the Chand, we have:

ਨਮੋ ਕਲਹ ਕਰਤਾ ਨਮੋ ਸ਼ਾਂਤ ਰੂਪੇ ॥

This is correct, because it refers to ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ (Peace).

I am a firm believer to have correct Arth you need Santhyia, if you do wrong ucharan you are unknowingly (or some are knowingly) changing arths.

I'll admit my bias is more toward Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh's book Gurbani Lagamatra di Vilakhanta and Bhai Joginder Singh Ji's Shudh Uchaaran book (who researched Sampardaiye and Modern missionary pronunciation and spent decades doing Khoj on puratan birhs.)

Their work is book form, hopefully it can taught as well.

Edited by FreshMind13

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4 minutes ago, FreshMind13 said:

Your first example is correct. It means ਰਜ਼ਾ, hukam de razza vich chalna. While it isn't needed as the meaning still stands, but it's nice to use the original pronunciation of the word.

Yes, the root word may use a 'z' sound, but the Gurmukhi does not. Therefore it is incorrect to pronounce it as such.

15 minutes ago, FreshMind13 said:

ਸਾਤ. (Notice there is no Bindi on Kanna Either)

I've only ever seen it with kanna-bindi.

 

But there is some variation in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji Saroops - Hazoori pronunciation is also different. Personally I will stick with Sant Gyani Mohan SIngh Ji's (Bhindrawale) Gutka on the matter.

I've made reasonably clear that I believe Taksals Santhiya is correct. If you have some other system then tuhadi marji.

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4 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Personally I will stick with Sant 've made reasonably clear that I believe Taksals Santhiya is correct. If you have some other system then tuhadi marji.

Which is why I mentioned where I base my knowledge from.

Most ucharan is 95% similar anyway, its just the 5% that is higher/advanced/scholarly level. For the average person starting out, they should learn Muharni and the Lagamatras and not put too much dubdha in their minds.

Edited by FreshMind13

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2 minutes ago, FreshMind13 said:

Which is why I mentioned where I base my knowledge from.

Most ucharan is 95% similar anyway, its just the 5% that is higher level. For the average person starting out, they should learn Muharni and the Lagamatras.

Apologies, I had the page open from before you made the edit.

Yeah most Uchaaran is similar. In one post I said even within Taksal there are differences so I understand what you mean.

Generally speaking though, the only major difference that would arise I suspect is the use of pairi akhars where there are none; Taksal doesn't do this...they tend to read it as is with the exception of adhak.

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