Women, strength, liberation

[puzzled]

4 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think the notion that the past was somehow a period of chaste, wholesomeness that has been corupted is a complete delusion. You highlighted interesting stuff above. I'd argue that Charitrio Pakyaan is our own culture's exploration of this very topic (amongst many others - some gupt - within). 

Base human nature, doesn't just come and go; humans and their societies are always subject to these things! We have a lot of references that suggest things were not in the mould of latter day (or even today's!) representations in our panth (and I believe heavily influenced by prudish, victorian values of the colonisers of the past). Hell, even this victorian prudishness was delusional in itself! They had everything going on, and then some. 

its true though, we tend to look at the people of the past and think they were saints!    whats more odd is that inns and pubs full of whores and drunks were normally right next to churches!  even st pauls cathedral was surrounded by brothels and all that stuff,  which destroys the idea of people of the past being more religious and devout. 

shakespears writing is full of drunks, prostitutes and everything else that he witnessed.

van goghs painting night cafe is perfect example, its a grim looking cafe with a couple of drunks slouched on the table and some prostitutes having a drink at the back. he used to visit the cafe himself and then did a painting of it.

in charitriopakhyan one of the characters is a sikh woman called anoop kaur  a resident of anandpur sahib, so even 300 yrs ago in holy cities like anandpur sahib there were women of sikh families that behaved like her. 

the people of the past were just as bad, or even worse and far more open than the present. 

 

[dallysingh101]

17 minutes ago, puzzled said:

its true though, we tend to look at the people of the past and think they were saints!    whats more odd is that inns and pubs full of whores and drunks were normally right next to churches!  even st pauls cathedral was surrounded by brothels and all that stuff,  which destroys the idea of people of the past being more religious and devout. 

shakespears writing is full of drunks, prostitutes and everything else that he witnessed.

van goghs painting night cafe is perfect example, its a grim looking cafe with a couple of drunks slouched on the table and some prostitutes having a drink at the back. he used to visit the cafe himself and then did a painting of it.

in charitriopakhyan one of the characters is a sikh woman called anoop kaur  a resident of anandpur sahib, so even 300 yrs ago in holy cities like anandpur sahib there were women of sikh families that behaved like her. 

the people of the past were just as bad, or even worse and far more open than the present. 

 

Look at Prem Sumarag too. It dates back to the early 1800s (at least!) but might be much earlier. In the section about marriage it laments and warns against the practice of buying females creeping into the panth. 

I don't get the impulse to whitewash history. I think it was something goray introduced to us. You look at Bhangu's Panth Prakash, he doesn't shy away from detailing actions by apnay that would be considered heavily controversial today. 

[puzzled]

21 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Look at Prem Sumarag too. It dates back to the early 1800s (at least!) but might be much earlier. In the section about marriage it laments and warns against the practice of buying females creeping into the panth. 

I don't get the impulse to whitewash history. I think it was something goray introduced to us. You look at Bhangu's Panth Prakash, he doesn't shy away from detailing actions by apnay that would be considered heavily controversial today. 

theres even the story of bhai joga of peshawar who on his way from peshawar to anandpur sahib to meet guru ji, was tempted to visit a brothel. 

i think history was mostly written by kings and the elite who wanted to paint a rosy image of themselves and society around them. there are hardly any sources that actually describe the barbarity the muslims carried out on indians even though they were there for 1000s yrs, and instead they left behind massive structures like the taj for us to remember them by.  same with british cruelty in india.

its only in recent times that people have started digging deep and getting clues from even the tiniest of things 

[puzzled]

56 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think the notion that the past was somehow a period of chaste, wholesomeness that has been corrupted is a complete delusion.

https://www.inkedmag.com/culture/sex-during-the-black-plague

https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/sin-city-thievery-prostitution-and-murder-in-medieval-london/

[puzzled]

jack the ripper is another one who went around murdering whores in east london!   i reckon he was a priest or a "religious" man but was in conflict with his sexual urges and was a regular customer! and this inner conflict resulted in him murdering the whores he visited. 

just a theory lol    but stuff like this happens

london has a fascinating past lol

 

[puzzled]

28 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Prem Sumarag

where can i see that online 

just found a scanned copy on archive.org titled "prem sumarag testimony of a sanatan sikh" by wh mcleod     is that the correct one? 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

2 hours ago, puzzled said:

in charitriopakhyan one of the characters is a sikh woman called anoop kaur  a resident of anandpur sahib, so even 300 yrs ago in holy cities like anandpur sahib there were women of sikh families that behaved like her. 

I think that might be allegory or other figurative device. They say to make ppl relate to a story, u write it as if it happened locally. 

Most of dasam granth uses alot of allusions and other figurative devices to make ancient myths more interesting to the  contemporary audience. 

Thats what the dasam granth scholar Dr Harbhajan singh said. (We brought him to do a couple of lectures in CA to stem the anti dasam granth camp)

But who knows? It could be real?

[jkvlondon]

10 hours ago, puzzled said:

Many women chose to be casual partners. You know women do sleep around out of their own choice and there is a thing called friends with benefits. 

Women use men for their pen!s as well. 

The current fad with women is them using the aubergine emoji on social media which basically represents a male private part

When I was mona I had female colleagues slapping my bum and grabbing my fronts for a laugh. 

Its  it like the old days anymore, women are more sexually open now than ever before. 

In fact from my experience women are more sexually open in conversations than men are, men tend to have sexual conversations amongst themselves, while from my experience a lot of women dont care whose around.

many women and girls have been indoctrinated to let men off the hook and remove their responsibility of looking after their actions , it has gotten to the stage now that little girls are getting assaulted in schools and being asked by teachers what did you do/wear to provoke it.

[jkvlondon]

22 minutes ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

I think that might be allegory or other figurative device. They say to make ppl relate to a story, u write it as if it happened locally. 

Most of dasam granth uses alot of allusions and other figurative devices to make ancient myths more interesting to the  contemporary audience. 

Thats what the dasam granth scholar Dr Harbhajan singh said. (We brought him to do a couple of lectures in CA to stem the anti dasam granth camp)

But who knows? It could be real?

wrong to assume she was sikh because the use of Kaur as a surname predates khalsa sajna diwas as does Dasam Granth

[dallysingh101]

2 hours ago, puzzled said:

where can i see that online 

just found a scanned copy on archive.org titled "prem sumarag testimony of a sanatan sikh" by wh mcleod     is that the correct one? 

That's an English translation with McLeod's infamous orientalist interpretations. Use the interpretation by all means but be really skeptical with his analysis.

 

Go to scribd and find my page (under dalsingh101), you can find the original Gurmukhi text there if you're interested in checking McLeod's interpretation.