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1 hour ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

I think that might be allegory or other figurative device. They say to make ppl relate to a story, u write it as if it happened locally. 

Most of dasam granth uses alot of allusions and other figurative devices to make ancient myths more interesting to the  contemporary audience. 

Thats what the dasam granth scholar Dr Harbhajan singh said. (We brought him to do a couple of lectures in CA to stem the anti dasam granth camp)

But who knows? It could be real?

true, but either way even if it wasn't a real person   these kind of sikhs must of existed even back then for guru ji to write about it.   most the characters have hindus names, apart from 2 or 3 which have sikhs female names 

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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

wrong to assume she was sikh because the use of Kaur as a surname predates khalsa sajna diwas as does Dasam Granth

 woman called Anoop Kaur in Anadpur sahib at the same time as Guru Gobind Singh ji has more chances of being a Sikh woman than hindu tbh ...   

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1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Plus if you read contemporary Persian (muslim) sources on Banda Singh, you'll notice they often don't hesitate in mentioning their own barbarity (which they see as normal), so I don't really agree with you there. Stuff like taking families away as slaves, putting Singhs heads on spears on journey to Delhi etc. They don't hide it. 

thats because they saw it as a holy duty and thats how they often justified it,  they actually glorified the barbarity     like in taimurs diary   he calls it a holy war in the name of allah and slayed as many hindus as he could    he gives a very detailed account of his invasion of india       from what i remember reading he even slaughtered the hindus hiding in the mosque in delhi. 

but i dont think there is any mughal cruelty documented my a common man or hindu poet of the time.  Guru Nanak Dev Jis Babur bani is the only account written by a non muslim. 

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1 hour ago, puzzled said:

 woman called Anoop Kaur in Anadpur sahib at the same time as Guru Gobind Singh ji has more chances of being a Sikh woman than hindu tbh ...   

you are aware that many anti-dasam and anti-sikh people have tried to claim this is autobiographical reference because they made the same assumption you did , that Anoop Kaur had tried to seduce Guru ji ... remember this tales are taken from common 'folk cautionary tales that existed prior' and reiterated in Guru ji's stories within story

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3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

you are aware that many anti-dasam and anti-sikh people have tried to claim this is autobiographical reference because they made the same assumption you did , that Anoop Kaur had tried to seduce Guru ji ... remember this tales are taken from common 'folk cautionary tales that existed prior' and reiterated in Guru ji's stories within story

…….deleted

 

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Not from me, it is a copy and paste. It does contain some uncomfortable truths:

People don't like hearing women criticised, it elicits a certain distaste, a feeling that it is cruel, wrong and unkind for them to be stripped bare by truth, so we should show mercy.

And yet the truth knows no mercy, so to get it, you must pay such sentimental aversion no mind.

 True cruelty is to show a woman the horrors of her own nature, to cast a mirror and make her aware of her own ugliness.

She cannot handle it, so she must deny it, avoid it, reject it - anything but accept it.

Truth is her enemy, which is why showing her herself is cruel.

 You see, this is where men and women differ.

Man is very much aware of, and accepting to varying degrees, of the demon that lies within, the worst of what he can be, and how it looks when it manifests.

But woman? She lives under the pretence she is innocent and can do no wrong.

 There is no aspect of male nature u can bring to the forefront of his awareness that will break him

Nothing that he must deny and reject to preserve a fragile sanity based on ignorance. He need not live a lie, which is why he is less averse to logic & better suited to seek truth

 Man, unlike woman, does not have a compulsion to feel pretty, and therefore does not possess a need to be perfect.

To be pretty, one must be perfect, to be perfect, one must be blameless & to be blameless, one must be innocent - so you see - it is woman's vanity that undoes her.

 Know that this is woman's crude understanding of what it is to be pretty, for although symmetry is aesthetic, perfection is not beautiful, because artifice is unnatural and that which is unnatural always bears some ugliness.

Beauty transcends rigidity, perfection and aesthetics.

 Beauty transcends rigidity because it can be found as much in chaos as it can in order, it transcends perfection because it enriches more than impressiveness and occurs naturally, and it transcends aesthetics because it is not constrained to the physical.

 The idiots say we condition women to be obsessed with beauty by sexualising them, and yet what I speak of goes beyond sexualisation. The vanity I speak of is deeply, intrinsically & archetypically feminine, going beyond the material and the aesthetic to embody the spiritual.

 Sexualisation is why six packs & biceps are coveted by men - this is vanity of the aesthetic kind

And yet do these men have a need on a deeply emotional level "to feel pretty" and thereby be blamelessly innocent?

No. They accept their role and duties require them to be ugly.

 Man cannot escape his own ugliness, for he is always cast as the villain - for by merit of the duty to bring order, he is the authoritarian, the disciplinarian, the punisher, the prosecutor, the rule maker, the predator, the destroyer, he who brings fear - the one that knocks.

 And so you see, it is only in woman's unending need to feel pretty, and in her aversion to truth, that man is able to seek truth in acceptance of his ugliness. If woman accepted her ugliness and sought truth, men would hide from it to be pretty.

The need for balance conjoins us.

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9 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

you are aware that many anti-dasam and anti-sikh people have tried to claim this is autobiographical reference because they made the same assumption you did , that Anoop Kaur had tried to seduce Guru ji ... remember this tales are taken from common 'folk cautionary tales that existed prior' and reiterated in Guru ji's stories within story

Yes I am aware of that. But it doesnt mean she wasnt sikh!  Anoop kaur is a sikh woman's name.   

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2 hours ago, puzzled said:

Yes I am aware of that. But it doesnt mean she wasnt sikh!  Anoop kaur is a sikh woman's name.   

Mata ji of Guru Angad dev ji was hindu but her name was Mata Daya Kaur ji

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15 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

you are aware that many anti-dasam and anti-sikh people have tried to claim this is autobiographical reference because they made the same assumption you did , that Anoop Kaur had tried to seduce Guru ji ... remember this tales are taken from common 'folk cautionary tales that existed prior' and reiterated in Guru ji's stories within story

Even if the story is true then it really isn't any different to the women of the women of kaamroop and assam who tried to seduce Guru Nanak Dev Ji  would it?     

Or Kalyug offering Guru Nanak Dev ji all worldly pleasures and comforts.

Guru Jis came across murderers, thugs, rapists, even family members that were traitors, so whats so hard to believe about them coming across loose women of the time?    

How the male reacted in the story of anoop kaur is how every sikh male should respond if he finds himself in a similar situation. 

 

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3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Mata ji of Guru Angad dev ji was hindu but her name was Mata Daya Kaur ji

true  but it still doesn't mean that anoop kaur was a non Sikh. 

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5 hours ago, puzzled said:

true  but it still doesn't mean that anoop kaur was a non Sikh. 

trying to point out that it is not necessarily a fact that only sikhs had the name . If I remember the story it doesn't say she is ...just from a respected family. I know that the Sri Lankan King sent temptresses to Guru Nanak Dev ji . I agree that it is the actions of the characters are important and the proper response.

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On 1/31/2020 at 9:15 PM, dallysingh101 said:

Well, you don't know a lot of excessively stout Panjaban types (even if they were slim when young). They do everything they can to dominate a family. Most of the puppoos out there are the offspring of control freak, domineering bibian! Then the behaviour of these women towards new, better looking, better educated daughter in laws is appalling to the extreme and the cause of many family break ups, but you don't hear any jananis ponking about that problem!

 

Yes, it's true, but I've even met daft birds who've actually chosen to be with some abusive guy, despite having lots of other options and have had strokes and crap. It's not straightforward.  Women often get attracted to flash, 'charming' types who end up having NPD, like where is your brains at? A lot of apneean think like children for some reason, that's why they get groomed so often. No smarts whatsoever. I think generally though, we need more clued up convos with the younger ones when growing up. Apnay (especially from back home) just relegate this responsibility (I don't even think they realise why it may be a good idea!) then you have puppoo and pinky out in the real world like lambs to the slaughter!

Well, a first thing is for women to stop emasculating young men in their family and removing their anakh, just because it's cuddly for them. That doesn't mean we encourage full on pendu bwaah! bwaaah! jut type stupidity btw.

If this type of crap was going on in the family, why didn't someone stomp someone else over it? Are all the men pajamas? What's the state of the blokes? Most abusers choose their prey quite carefully, making sure that they don't have any serious physical threat to themselves if exposed. That needs to change. Not only for what goes on internally, but we should all know the score about grooming by outsiders now.  

Raising strong, ethical boys and keeping an eye out for pedos is a must. That doesn't mean those caste obsessed fudhus that think they are tough but shyte themselves about any action that will make them collide with the police or genuine physical threats. Or the other type that is just some liability - more likely to attack their own than anyone else. I think in terms of raising boys, apneean are frequently proper shyte and bottom of the barrel. If we are raising soft boys - expect other more predatory individuals and cultures/religions to view us as easy prey. 

Mainly though, you can help these women by having older, cool role models who speak and teach them, especially during the crucial period just before and after puberty. - but you hardly see any jananis like this. Clueless. Then it's all dumped on blokes, like we've got to figure out everything for you. Try using your own brains and manipulating that 'girl-code' thing you all live by maybe? 

 

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE MEN ON HERE???

Im asking how we can HELP WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN ABUSED, NOT HOW MEN FEEL LIKE THEYRE BEING ATTACKED WHEN THIS TRUTH HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO LIGHT.

 

Shame on the men here. I will. Go to another forum and find answers somewhere else. Completely Insane. 

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15 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Mata ji of Guru Angad dev ji was hindu but her name was Mata Daya Kaur ji

JKV don’t bother, men on here clearly have some issues and have just proved a point. This Entire thread has turned into a woman bashing session, most of the men on here are Primitive. 

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10 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

trying to point out that it is not necessarily a fact that only sikhs had the name . If I remember the story it doesn't say she is ...just from a respected family. I know that the Sri Lankan King sent temptresses to Guru Nanak Dev ji . I agree that it is the actions of the characters are important and the proper response.

Lol but you cant deny that it's very possible that it could be a sikh woman as well. 

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