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Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh

Puzzled's rather Briliant Puratan Art Thread - a layman's response

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Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh

Puzzled is good with photos. No....not just 'good'.....he's brilliant. Always finds and shares with us the most brilliant of photos. There is one thing that annoys me about Puzzled though and that is the fact that he posts photos and pictures and then walks away. You can tell from the fact that he finds such amazing art to share with us that he does indeed have a great passion for art so I just wish he would tap into those creative juices flowing through his brain and share some of his own thoughts about the photos / pics he posts. That's what this discussion forum should be all about....sharing with the sangat.....sharing knowledge.....sharing skills....sharing ideas.....sharing passion. The pictures on Puzzled's thread are so amazing they're crying out for at least one of you on that page to voice your opinion about them. Critique them. Praise them. Love them. Hate them - and the reasons why. Obviously I can't post on any other page but this anonymous one so I waited patiently for one of you to do so......because I absolutely love reading what others have to say and learning from them. Alas, no opinion of the art ever came hence I've started this thread.

 

OK....first of all....as most of us here are educated in the west we have to admit that the actual depictions are so out of scale and unrealistic that they almost look as though a small child drew them. That's a given....but the question is why are the depictions so unrealistic and out of scale. The answer to that lies in History. History answers everything........including Sikh Art. A small part of the answer also lies in psychology in the sense that we, as a people, generally, did not, and in a sense still do not, possess the kind of curious nature that led to the renaissance in Europe. But even that 'psychology' has a 'history' narrative in the sense that we didn't go through the same change in psyche as the Europeans because, at that time, we were not going through he same fragmented upheavals as them, i.e.  we were under a singular mughal rule. And that's the key to all of this - the Mughals (Muslims) vs the Europeans (Christians). That's not to say attempts were never made in Punjab to adopt the European concept of perspective in drawings / paintings - They were, but ultimatelely our bad art without perspective is the result of the idealogical war between muslims and christians. Punjabi art, at that time, was Indian art, and Indian art was essentially Persian art but as the Persians were always more occupied in symmetrical beauty they never developed any true sense painting the human form and nature to scale with perspective. That was never their thing. And so, when art advanced in Europe, the Mughal emporers, starting with Humayun, did indeed invite European masters to come and teach the court how to paint with perspective. However, there was a problem straight away in the sense that the beautifull new way of painting realistically in Europe was almost entirely Christian in nature in the way that the art-form itself was seen as a tool to depict scenes from the Bible. the next emporer, Akbar, carried on where his dad left off and started a school in which European masters could teach Indians about proper painting. In fact, there was a time, during Akbar's reign, that it seemed the European style of realism in paintings was becoming the norm in Punjab. But old habits die hard. There was a cultural afinity towards Persian art - partly because the word persia was synonymous with art and when the Punjabi and Indian mind thinks of art he or she almost always firstly thinks of poetry - and so the natural pull back to persian depictions in paintings was always stopping Sikh art from embracing European modes of perspective. Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well here but what I'm trying to say is this: When looking at Jaimal Singh Naqash and Mehtab Singh Naqash.'s painted frescos at the Golden temple, you and I need to have an understanding of history. When we have that, we can get inside the heads of Jaimal Singh and Mehtab Singh. I mean really get inside their heads - to the point that we can picture ourselves as them holding their brushes in front of those walls and ceilings. When we do, we start to understand that linear perspectives didn't even enter our minds - or if they did at all they were just insignificant afterthoughts. What was most important then is the same as what is most important now if one goes to any Gurdwara anywhere in the world (incidentally....I raised a very important point point in my Gurdwara Designs thread yesterday about this that I'd like you all to contemplate)  - COLOUR !!    Excessive use of colour. Even in the real surroundings of Gurdwaras today you will not find the physical versions of linear perspectives and symmetry etc. You will find colour. Sometimes garish, over-the-top colours. Exactly the same with Sikh Art - it reflects the psyche of we, the Sikhs. 

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The paintings from baba atal rai's tower are not that elegant looking and gaudy mainly because most of them were done near the end of the sikh empire and after the collapse, so most of the sikh paintings in that period were done by local artists. While art work done during maharaja ranjit singhs time was done by mainly pahari artists who were trained in the rajput and later mughal courts, and the work was just beautiful.    

painting at baba atal rai tower   the figures in the paintings in baba atal rai jis tower are very short and stocky.

Image result for baba atal rai frescoes

 

painting done during sikh raj at its peak.  you can clearly see the difference, the detail in the painting below is amazing, the lines are so fine and intricate, the precision, the atmosphere, everything . if you look closely you can even see the expressions on some of the men.  This work is a reflection of the empire at its peak.  In comparison to the paintings at baba atal rai which were done once the empire collapsed.  

EotS-4-2-Radha+Kapuria+-+title.png

another painting done at the peak of the sikh empire, this imo is the most beautiful indian painting iv seen, The grandness depicted in this painting is a thing fairy tales. Its a perfect reflection of the riches of sikh raj at its peak. The attention to detail and the fine lines are out of this world. Each figure has been painted with so much detail in their finest attire and jewels, even the detail of the fabric they are wearing . they used to use natural colours and use horse hair to draw all the lines.  Artists sometimes used to use a brush with just a single strand of horse hair for the finest of details in these paintings.     

Screen+Shot+2018-07-28+at+22.06.18.png?format=1500w

 

i wonder what happened to all the artists once the sikh empire collapsed ....  

 

Sikh art was mainly influenced by art from the neighboring pahari regions like the basoli art. Most the artists working in the Sikh court were pahari artists who had earlier worked in the courts of the rajputs. Pahari art developed from Mughal art but is quiet different in appearance, pahari art is its own school of art. Mughal art was developed from persian art while persian i believe broke away from chinese art. 

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Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh
37 minutes ago, puzzled said:

The paintings from baba atal rai's tower are not that elegant looking and gaudy mainly because most of them were done near the end of the sikh empire and after the collapse, so most of the sikh paintings in that period were done by local artists. While art work done during maharaja ranjit singhs time was done by mainly pahari artists who were trained in the rajput and later mughal courts, and the work was just beautiful.    

painting at baba atal rai tower   the figures in the paintings in baba atal rai jis tower are very short and stocky.

Image result for baba atal rai frescoes

 

painting done during sikh raj at its peak.  you can clearly see the difference, the detail in the painting below is amazing, the lines to so fine and intricate, the precision, the atmosphere, everything . if you look closely you can even see the expressions on some of the men.  This work is a reflection of the empire at its peak.  In comparison to the paintings at baba atal rai which were done once the empire collapsed.  

EotS-4-2-Radha+Kapuria+-+title.png

another painting done at the peak of the sikh empire, this imo is the most beautiful indian painting iv seen, The grandness depicted in this painting is a thing fairy tales. Its a perfect reflection of the riches of sikh raj at its peak. The attention to detail and the fine lines are out of this world. Each figure has been painted with so much detail in their finest attire and jewels, even the detail of the fabric they are wearing . they used to use natural colours and use horse hair to draw all the lines.  Artists sometimes used to use a brush with just a single strand of horse hair for the finest of details in these paintings.     

Screen+Shot+2018-07-28+at+22.06.18.png?format=1500w

 

i wonder what happened to all the artists once the sikh empire collapsed ....  

 

Sikh art was mainly influenced by art from the neighboring pahari regions like the basoli art. Most the artists working in the Sikh court were pahari artists who had earlier worked in the courts of the rajputs. Pahari art developed from Mughal art but is quiet different in appearance, pahari art is its own school of art. Mughal art was developed from persian art while persian i believe broke away from chinese art. 

See...that's ^ what I'm talking about Puzzled. I knew you had it in you. You just needed someone to bring it out. Well done. You're teaching and we're learning from you. Keep it up.

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Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh

In response to something Puzzled said about the artist Amrita Shergill:

Quote

Yh you can see the European influence in her art, she went to europe for painting classes  france I think?  but really missed india so came back.    Its said she was influenced by the ajanta cave paintings aswell when she visited them, you can definitely see the influence from the ajanta paintings. 

Mate....she was born in Hungary to an Hungarian mother. She didn't just "go to Europe"....she was an actual product of Europe. Also....not that it matters at all but I'll throw it out there anyway....she was a chain smoking <banned word filter activated> who, according to her own biography, had trouble controlling her nymhomania and had numerous affairs with lots of different men....including Nehru.    And Nehru, you may recall, was a male slag who had lots of affairs with lots of women including the Countess Mountbatten. So.....if we're on an episode of Jeapardy and the answer is "a male slag and a paedophile", the question is 'Who are the two founding fathers of modern India '

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:19 PM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

In response to something Puzzled said about the artist Amrita Shergill:

Mate....she was born in Hungary to an Hungarian mother. She didn't just "go to Europe"....she was an actual product of Europe. Also....not that it matters at all but I'll throw it out there anyway....she was a chain smoking <banned word filter activated> who, according to her own biography, had trouble controlling her nymhomania and had numerous affairs with lots of different men....including Nehru.    And Nehru, you may recall, was a male slag who had lots of affairs with lots of women including the Countess Mountbatten. So.....if we're on an episode of Jeapardy and the answer is "a male slag and a paedophile", the question is 'Who are the two founding fathers of modern India '

lol yes, i remember us reading about her personal life as 14/15 yr olds doing gcse art and laughing at all the naughty bits haha!   she was quite something wasnt she!   

i dont remember much now as its been some time  but i remember reading how she loved being center of attention and during some art even or social event? she decided to unravel her sari front of everyone, stripped  butt naked!  and layed on the floor for everyone to look at, she then invited the young men to do it with her   while everyone stood there looking!      cant remember if it was some social event or a art event    but yh   she did that!      thats all i remember reading about her lol

yh  i think her mother traveled to india with one of maharaja duleep singhs daughters and in punjab her mother met her father umrao singh,  they then moved to Europe where amrita was born but then moved back to india,   i think there was a lot of moving back and forth from india and Europe,  but amrita decided to settle in india and thats where her painting took off.    

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