Are we good or bad if we are powerless?

[SikhSeeker]

WJKK WJKF

Whilst reading Jap Ji Sahib I had a thought. The pauri

ਆਖਣਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਚੁਪੈ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ॥ ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ॥ ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ॥ ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ॥ ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ॥ ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਛੁਟੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੋਇ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ॥

 

Where Guruji states

 

No power to speak, no power to keep silent.

 

jor na mangan dayn na jor.

 

No power to beg, no power to give.

 

jor na jeevan maran nah jor.

 

No power to live, no power to die.

 

jor na raaj maal man sor.

 

No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.

 

jor na surtee gi-aan veechaar.

 

No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.

 

jor na jugtee chhutai sansaar.

 

No power to find the way to escape from the world.

 

jis hath jor kar vaykhai so-ay.

 

He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.

 

naanak utam neech na ko-ay. ||33||

 

O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

 

Guruji is stating that we have no power to do anything, so we ultimately Waheguru is controlling everything as we cannot. So if Waheguru created this play and everyone inside the play is controlled, why are we then judged “good” or “bad” when we die or go to “hell” if Waheguru has control over us and we have no power?

 

I am not trying to create an argument but just confused as to how we have no power but we also get judged?

Phul Chuk Maff

[singhbj singh]

Enlightenment 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sikh/comments/a0m5b3/hukam_vs_karam/

 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 3/12/2020 at 1:56 AM, SikhSeeker said:

Guruji is stating that we have no power to do anything, so we ultimately Waheguru is controlling everything as we cannot. So if Waheguru created this play and everyone inside the play is controlled, why are we then judged “good” or “bad” when we die or go to “hell” if Waheguru has control over us and we have no power

Because there is no us either. It is waheguru himself who pays for the consequences as well. He goes to hell too. Remember our soul is of similar essence as that of the Ultimate soul, waheguru.

The play is bigger than we imagined. Waheguru is both the puppet,controller and audience.  Essentially created a world/playground then divided himself and made himself forget who he is and believe in a new identity.

Thats why the goal of the sikh is to discover the atma and then Parmatma and then merge. Basically we have to undo the game and discover reality, that all is One. 

 

[Akalifauj]

2 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Because there is no us either. It is waheguru himself who pays for the consequences as well. He goes to hell too. Remember our soul is of similar essence as that of the Ultimate soul, waheguru.

Vaheguru pays for the consequences and goes to hell?  Now I get it.  This is your universal truth.  Even Christians don't curse their God to hell.  You must be the special elite 3ho.  Tell us what part of Vaheguru pays for the consequences and goes to hell.  Here I will name the parts for you.   Ik Onkar,  satnaam, karta Purkh,  nirbhau, nirvair, akal moorat,  ajooni sabhun, and gur parsad.

Lastly does nirankar pay for the consequences and goes to hell.   

[MisterrSingh]

I always viewed this pauri as one that professes humility for the brilliance of the Almighty by comparing our lack of everything to His grasp of it all. Well, not even "grasp". He just is. It's an invocation of praise for an unfathomable being, and I don't see how that can be turned around to abnegate us of the will to act and do. I might be wrong but I don't see it as a treatise on ethics and behaviour.

If I have no "power," and in my attempt to be an obedient Sikh, I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and neglect to wear my trousers, because apparently all is God, and me not dressing myself is God's will. That's me trying to be clever, and mocking God. That's not what this Gurbani is saying at all.

[H908]

11 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I always viewed this pauri as one that professes humility for the brilliance of the Almighty by comparing our lack of everything to His grasp of it all. Well, not even "grasp". He just is. It's an invocation of praise for an unfathomable being, and I don't see how that can be turned around to abnegate us of the will to act and do. I might be wrong but I don't see it as a treatise on ethics and behaviour.

If I have no "power," and in my attempt to be an obedient Sikh, I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and neglect to wear my trousers, because apparently all is God, and me not dressing myself is God's will. That's me trying to be clever, and mocking God. That's not what this Gurbani is saying at all.

Yea that makes sense. I also think it could mean in “jor” or jog ( connection to waheguru) there is not any of the phenomenon that mahraj lists ie: jeevan and maran dont exist in gian of waheguru

[SikhSeeker]

On 3/13/2020 at 7:15 PM, MisterrSingh said:

I always viewed this pauri as one that professes humility for the brilliance of the Almighty by comparing our lack of everything to His grasp of it all. Well, not even "grasp". He just is. It's an invocation of praise for an unfathomable being, and I don't see how that can be turned around to abnegate us of the will to act and do. I might be wrong but I don't see it as a treatise on ethics and behaviour.

If I have no "power," and in my attempt to be an obedient Sikh, I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and neglect to wear my trousers, because apparently all is God, and me not dressing myself is God's will. That's me trying to be clever, and mocking God. That's not what this Gurbani is saying at all.

This makes sense, it seems hard for me to get my head around that we have power but ultimately we have no power. My manmukh mind...

[MisterrSingh]

1 hour ago, SikhSeeker said:

This makes sense, it seems hard for me to get my head around that we have power but ultimately we have no power. My manmukh mind...

Hey, don't take my word for it. Based on where my understanding is at this moment in time, that's how I understand the spirit of the bani in question as well as the wider context of its application.