The Future of Langar after Coronavirus - things will never be the same again

[Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh]

On 3/13/2020 at 9:06 PM, Guest Singh said:

I think there will be little impact on langar and gurdware. Sikhs are already in good position for battling coronovirus. 

- Officials now say wash/sanitise your hands when entering public buildings. Sikhs already do - we enter gurdware take shoes off and wash hands.

- Officials say frequently wash hands. Sangat visiting gurdware already do. Before we do distribute karah parshad, do langar seva, do chour sahib seva, sit on stage to do kirtan, sit at Guru ji’s tabiyaa to read path we wash our hands. 

- Hygiene in Sikh gurdware is very high. Especially compared to some Hindu temples in India. 

 

General comment regarding future of Langar:

Guru Nanak’s langer will NEVER end! There are stories where reserves of ingredients like flour ran out, but the parshade never ran out. For every parshada given to sangat another appeared in the box. Then we have the blessing of ardaas and kirpan bhet bhog.

Ridhia Sidhia are servants in Guru Nanak’s langar. 

Tichar mool na thuRa(n)eedho jichar aap kirapaal ||

- the mortal does not run out of capital, as long as the Lord himself is merciful.

Sabadh akhuT baabaa naanakaa khaeh kharach dhan maal ||20||

 - the word of the shabad is Guru Nanak’s inexhaustible treasure; this wealth and capital never runs out, no matter how much is spent and consumed. ||20||

 

Thank you for your comments Guest Singh. Before I address your general hygeine points however, let me tell everyone here a story about a city in Iran.

Once upon a time (actually just a few weeks ago) there was a holy city in Iran called Qom. Members of the Shite faith used to go there from all over the world to pay their respects and touch holy relics. Much like our city of Amritsar, businessmen - on their way home from foreign trips - would make a point of going to that holy place before going home after landing at the airport. One such businessman had just come back from a business trip in Wuhan province in China. He picked up something in China. In Qom, he did what everyone else does and touched something as he prayed. Whatever he had from China was now on that relic he touched in Qom. Now everyone else who was visiting Qom started getting that something too. They started getting sick and dying. The religious leaders reminded peope that Qom is a holy site of god and would cure and protect them from such illnesses. So even more people visited and even more got sick and died. So.....from one single businessman and the misinformed advice from one group of religious leaders we reached a situation where Iran, per population, has by far the world's biggest coronavirus problem. 

What I'm trying to illustrate with that story is that it is very VERY important to separate faith from science. Faith can and indeed should be blind but science never can be. 

Hygiene in Sikh gurdware is very high.

No. Hygiene in Sikh Gurdwaras in india is not even a little bit high. It's a very low standard. I had langar at Chamkaur just a couple of months ago and I can honestly say that I was truly shocked that such an historical Gurdwara can have a such a dilapidated langar hall and facilities of extremely poor quality. That's just one single example. The rot, however, runs deep. For example when have you ever seen any Sikh gurdwara dry their dishes after washing them ? I mean you're talking about 'excellently high hygiene' when even a very basic of hygiene is missing - such as the fact that dishes left to air dry in the sun are a breeding ground for bacteria. Bacteria - which is evoving all the time - want and need us to not dry our dishes and leave them wet. We oblige. So please....learn from my story about Qom. The fact is that hygiene in Sikh Gurdwaras generally is extremely low. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 3/14/2020 at 8:29 AM, jkvlondon said:

langar should switch from frying anything to supplying fruit salad made with fresh fruit , do distribution of vitamin d to elderly and young families , do shopping drops also for elderly/ quarantined .

Now is a good time to support small independant businesses so they do not go under , I like how this disease is making people think in the community way.

 

Actually cooked hot food is best. Kills all the germs. Raw food is more dangerous. Fruits generally get flies etc

So its ok to cook without gloves etc if the food will be cooked. And we really do boil are stuff to the max.

However serving food is where we need hygiene. So passing out roti with gloves on. Salad definietly should be dkne with gloves and or chamte. And any sick and coughing ppl should not do seva. 

Also leaving out rice and food on counters and not the fridge. Also can cause germs to grow in room temp. But most gurudware are using the heating pans. 

Using the hazooriya to cover beard and mouth/nose like the nanaksariye and taksalis do should be mandatory.  As should be washing hands at least 3x before langae seva. 5x after using the loo. This is the norm in many samparda. And i like the icecream scoop for degh. Because random old buddhe like to come vartaa degh. Who dont have the best hygiene and always touch the hands. When the maryada is not to. 

[Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh]

Chain of events in UK so far:

Friday (when I started this thread) - the government didn't specifically mention "herd immunity" in so many words but their announced strategy made it clear that it was exactly that

Saturday and Sunday - The media and the rest of the world ( a day after I told you guys here on this forum) finally clicked on to the fact that the UK's strategy involved herd immunity and a hundred thousand people dying.

Monday - Now that the cat was out of the bag so to speak the UK government desperately tried to alter their strategy.

Tuesday (today) - They have announced - after a realising that a million would die - have finally altered their strategy. So no longer 'herd immunity' but now following the same plan as the rest of the world.

 

Quote

 

Actually cooked hot food is best. Kills all the germs. Raw food is more dangerous. Fruits generally get flies etc

So its ok to cook without gloves etc if the food will be cooked. And we really do boil are stuff to the max.

However serving food is where we need hygiene. So passing out roti with gloves on. Salad definietly should be dkne with gloves and or chamte. And any sick and coughing ppl should not do seva. 

Also leaving out rice and food on counters and not the fridge. Also can cause germs to grow in room temp. But most gurudware are using the heating pans. 

Using the hazooriya to cover beard and mouth/nose like the nanaksariye and taksalis do should be mandatory.  As should be washing hands at least 3x before langae seva. 5x after using the loo. This is the norm in many samparda. And i like the icecream scoop for degh. Because random old buddhe like to come vartaa degh. Who dont have the best hygiene and always touch the hands. When the maryada is not to. 

 

^ Those are all excellent points and suggestions. At the moment, in Sikh Gurdwaras around the world, the way cooked food is cooked, stored, served and then dishes washed need a complete overall. The danger is if we continue with the same mindset of reminding ourselves (as one poster did above) that Sikh Gurdwaras are so much cleaner and more hygenic than Hindu Temples. Of course they are. Everything is cleaner than most Hindu temples. But that doesn't make them actually clean and hygenic. 

[jkvlondon]

3 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Actually cooked hot food is best. Kills all the germs. Raw food is more dangerous. Fruits generally get flies etc

So its ok to cook without gloves etc if the food will be cooked. And we really do boil are stuff to the max.

However serving food is where we need hygiene. So passing out roti with gloves on. Salad definietly should be dkne with gloves and or chamte. And any sick and coughing ppl should not do seva. 

Also leaving out rice and food on counters and not the fridge. Also can cause germs to grow in room temp. But most gurudware are using the heating pans. 

Using the hazooriya to cover beard and mouth/nose like the nanaksariye and taksalis do should be mandatory.  As should be washing hands at least 3x before langae seva. 5x after using the loo. This is the norm in many samparda. And i like the icecream scoop for degh. Because random old buddhe like to come vartaa degh. Who dont have the best hygiene and always touch the hands. When the maryada is not to. 

I don't know about your area  but the gloves are used for langar given on street to homeless and many gurdwarey here in UK have issued gloves but the problem with gloves which the medical community has noted is that people wash hands less and think that the gloves will protect from transfer of germs . Generally speaking the hygiene measures of true to roots langars are very high  , trays and spoons washed three times, no speaking , hazooria over mouth and nose  . All GUrdwarey here in Uk have to pass hygiene standards set by government so have to be as high as other restaurants/cafes/care home/hospital  kitchens else they will be shut down . DEgh vartouna has to be done by people who are clean , after washing hands .

[Big_Tera]

On 3/13/2020 at 11:43 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Coronavirus. What do we know ?    We know the rest of the world is trying to prevent any of it's citizens getting it whereas the UK is actively trying to ensure at least 50% of it's citizens get it. From a purely selfish point of view I'd like to try and keep myself and family safe as per the advice in the rest of the world but from a purely scientific point of view there is great merit in the UK strategy. The answer - long term - is to create an immunity from the virus and the only way to ensure that is to create a herd immunity among the population. That will only come once enough of the population get it. This is actually good science and, reluctantly, I actually applaud the UK Tory govenment's stance against popular opinion.  Not that it's stopping me keeping my kids home from school though. A man has to make his own decision about what's best for his own family. But, when the worst is over and we're back to 'normal' will things ever be 'normal' again ? No. They won't. There will be a new 'normal'. That's what events in history are about. Things happen - we learn from them - and things become different.  After the worst of the coronavirus is over we know things are not going to be as they were before. The wearing of surgical masks will remain common. Skin-like gloves will become more common and advanced. The handshake will be the preserve of the older generation whereas the elbow tap will be the most common greeting among the young. And what of communal public eating ? The Langar.  We know things are going to change. They are going to have to because public attitudes among Sikhs about what is and is not acceptable from a hygeine point of view will change. But, tell me,  what in your opinion will those changes in the concept of langar be ?  

Lol

Don't worry about the world changing forever and forever. When they find a vaccine for this. You can go back to not wearing your mask and having a traditional handshake just as before and live your life as before.  

So don't worry about the world changing forever and forever. And you having to wear a gas mask where ever you and not eating in the public and the globe suddenly stopping rotating. 

Looks like someone has been watching a little to much news and getting a little over excited.

'Jagsaw wakes up from his dream and realises it was just a nightmare and realises that the world is not going to end'

Awwww

[Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh]

47 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

 

Looks like someone has been watching a little to much news and getting a little over excited.

'Jagsaw wakes up from his dream and realises it was just a nightmare and realises that the world is not going to end'

Awwww

Who's "excited" ? I just asked about changes in Hygiene standards.

Who thinks the "world is gonna end? ".   I just said changes in the 'norm'.  The word 'norm' is a four letter word that starts with an 'n' and ends with a 'm'. The word 'end' is a three letter word that starts with an 'e' and ends with an 'n'. How do you even begin getting the two of them mixed up Big Tera. What on earth is wrong with you man ?  

[jkvlondon]

On 3/16/2020 at 12:20 PM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Thank you for your comments Guest Singh. Before I address your general hygeine points however, let me tell everyone here a story about a city in Iran.

Once upon a time (actually just a few weeks ago) there was a holy city in Iran called Qom. Members of the Shite faith used to go there from all over the world to pay their respects and touch holy relics. Much like our city of Amritsar, businessmen - on their way home from foreign trips - would make a point of going to that holy place before going home after landing at the airport. One such businessman had just come back from a business trip in Wuhan province in China. He picked up something in China. In Qom, he did what everyone else does and touched something as he prayed. Whatever he had from China was now on that relic he touched in Qom. Now everyone else who was visiting Qom started getting that something too. They started getting sick and dying. The religious leaders reminded peope that Qom is a holy site of god and would cure and protect them from such illnesses. So even more people visited and even more got sick and died. So.....from one single businessman and the misinformed advice from one group of religious leaders we reached a situation where Iran, per population, has by far the world's biggest coronavirus problem. 

What I'm trying to illustrate with that story is that it is very VERY important to separate faith from science. Faith can and indeed should be blind but science never can be. 

Hygiene in Sikh gurdware is very high.

No. Hygiene in Sikh Gurdwaras in india is not even a little bit high. It's a very low standard. I had langar at Chamkaur just a couple of months ago and I can honestly say that I was truly shocked that such an historical Gurdwara can have a such a dilapidated langar hall and facilities of extremely poor quality. That's just one single example. The rot, however, runs deep. For example when have you ever seen any Sikh gurdwara dry their dishes after washing them ? I mean you're talking about 'excellently high hygiene' when even a very basic of hygiene is missing - such as the fact that dishes left to air dry in the sun are a breeding ground for bacteria. Bacteria - which is evoving all the time - want and need us to not dry our dishes and leave them wet. We oblige. So please....learn from my story about Qom. The fact is that hygiene in Sikh Gurdwaras generally is extremely low. 

the sun is a bleaching agent , in fact it is the reason why viruses and bacteria die off to some extent during summer months. remember UV light is used to do high tech santiation of water and other things .

[Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh]

On 3/16/2020 at 12:20 PM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Thank you for your comments Guest Singh. Before I address your general hygeine points however, let me tell everyone here a story about a city in Iran.

Once upon a time (actually just a few weeks ago) there was a holy city in Iran called Qom. Members of the Shite faith used to go there from all over the world to pay their respects and touch holy relics. Much like our city of Amritsar, businessmen - on their way home from foreign trips - would make a point of going to that holy place before going home after landing at the airport. One such businessman had just come back from a business trip in Wuhan province in China. He picked up something in China. In Qom, he did what everyone else does and touched something as he prayed. Whatever he had from China was now on that relic he touched in Qom. Now everyone else who was visiting Qom started getting that something too. They started getting sick and dying. The religious leaders reminded peope that Qom is a holy site of god and would cure and protect them from such illnesses. So even more people visited and even more got sick and died. So.....from one single businessman and the misinformed advice from one group of religious leaders we reached a situation where Iran, per population, has by far the world's biggest coronavirus problem. 

What I'm trying to illustrate with that story is that it is very VERY important to separate faith from science. Faith can and indeed should be blind but science never can be. 

"Hygiene in Sikh gurdware is very high" ?

No. Hygiene in Sikh Gurdwaras in india is not even a little bit high. It's a very low standard. I had langar at Chamkaur just a couple of months ago and I can honestly say that I was truly shocked that such an historical Gurdwara can have a such a dilapidated langar hall and facilities of extremely poor quality. That's just one single example. The rot, however, runs deep. For example when have you ever seen any Sikh gurdwara dry their dishes after washing them ? I mean you're talking about 'excellently high hygiene' when even a very basic of hygiene is missing - such as the fact that dishes left to air dry in the sun are a breeding ground for bacteria. Bacteria - which is evoving all the time - want and need us to not dry our dishes and leave them wet. We oblige. So please....learn from my story about Qom. The fact is that hygiene in Sikh Gurdwaras generally is extremely low. 

Trump likes to call it the "Chinese Virus". The rest of us like to say "coronavirus" even though coronavirus is a generic name as even the previous SARS and MERS viruses were 'technically coronaviruses'.  So lets call it COVID19.   Will Covid19 change the concept of langar ? Yes it will. Not so much by the Sikhs themselves but changes will be forced by the authorities.

Catastrophic events such as this are seen differently by different eyes. Through the eyes of  a Prime Minister or President this event will be seen as a unique opportunity to force through changes that otherwise would never be accepted. Alot of our changes will come about as we change the way we do and think about things but others will be mandated. The concept of langar will change because it is inevitable that one of the permanent changes that will come into force post-covid19 are stricter public health regulations and enforcement. It is inevitable that - post-coronavirus - strict regulations will come into force making it illegal for just anyone to stand behind the pots in the langar hall without a valid hygience training and certificate. I'm not saying that's the change that will come but it will definately be something along those lines. And the sanctions for non-compliance will no longer be a low rating. It's pretty much a given that new laws will be rushed through parliament imposing extremely high prison sentences on any individual or persons representing an organisation (such as a Sikh Gurdawara) flouting the regulations. There will be new norms post-coronavirus and anybody here that thinks the concept of langar will not be affected is seriously deluded. 

[Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh]

15 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the sun is a bleaching agent , in fact it is the reason why viruses and bacteria die off to some extent during summer months. remember UV light is used to do high tech santiation of water and other things .

Stop copy and pasting things you find on the internet and start using a bit of common sense for once JKVLondon. What you said above is true in a perfect sterile environment in which things such as flies, fleas, rodents, stray dogs, bird poo and other general bad-hygienic practices are not present - like clean Japan for example.  In the environment of Sikh Gurdwara langar halls however....those other factors are present. The bacteria and germs on them are actively looking for something damp and wet to breed on. We then go ahead and oblige.....we actually give bacteria what it;s looking for by leaving our wet pots and pans soaking wet. 

[Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh]

On 3/14/2020 at 3:39 PM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

 

Now....do you remember how people here laughed at me when I use to tell them how I grow my own food, make my own bread and am generally self-sufficient ?   

Well........do you all remember  the way you laughed at me and called me names ages ago when I used to tell you about my self-sufficient lifestyle ?????   Where are you all now ?