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Give your reasons of biggest threats or downfall that Sikhs face

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9 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Despite my previous statements in regards to similar discussions, I will add that we must be careful not to succumb to the "oppressed become the oppressors" syndrome. But I don't think anyone here is suggesting or endorsing barbarism of other groups in order to elevate our own causes. The disagreements seem to circulate around the question of prioritising self-interest Vs a short-term indiscriminate sarbhat da bhalla that has negative long-term consequences for us. I think it's a fascinating conundrum. Well, it is a conundrum for someone like me. For others it's a cut and dry situation not requiring debate.

I think that the Panth has reached a stage now where either we allow the SJW and leftist liberals to run amok and drain the Panth of all resources and empower other communities while the Panth descends into the void. It is now a case of survival and not just self interest. Look at Punjab it is fast becoming a lost cause. You only have to read the news from Punjab, 99 negatives occur against one positive. It has come to a stage where even the negatives are used by the SJWs to create more negatives. It is interesting how these SJW will make all sorts of judgements on Sikhs and accuse them to bring about their own ruin. If it's the farmers, the oft repeated lie that farmers borrow to show off while the truth is that farmers either borrow to be able to farm their land or sit at home and die of starvation. But on non-Sikhs it's never their fault and we should be helping them no matter if their situation was self inflicted. 

 

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6 hours ago, proactive said:

I think that the Panth has reached a stage now where either we allow the SJW and leftist liberals to run amok and drain the Panth of all resources and empower other communities while the Panth descends into the void. It is now a case of survival and not just self interest. Look at Punjab it is fast becoming a lost cause. You only have to read the news from Punjab, 99 negatives occur against one positive. It has come to a stage where even the negatives are used by the SJWs to create more negatives. It is interesting how these SJW will make all sorts of judgements on Sikhs and accuse them to bring about their own ruin. If it's the farmers, the oft repeated lie that farmers borrow to show off while the truth is that farmers either borrow to be able to farm their land or sit at home and die of starvation. But on non-Sikhs it's never their fault and we should be helping them no matter if their situation was self inflicted. 

 

It's not your money. Stop counting it and do something yourself. Greedy <banned word filter activated>. 

Your mamma never told you to mind your own business, stop complaining, and never count another mans money? Because the Guru Granth Sahib Ji certainly did. 

 

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3 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

It's not your money. Stop counting it and do something yourself. Greedy <banned word filter activated>. 

Your mamma never told you to mind your own business, stop complaining, and never count another mans money? Because the Guru Granth Sahib Ji certainly did. 

 

You know what Gurjant, there is historical evidence that even in dasmesh padshah's time, the tankhai fines collected were used to support poor Sikhs. Guru ji wasn't inhumane to nonSikhs but they undeniably did focus on building up and strengthening the panth that they established. You can't be in denial about this. I mean they even had the dastaars took off the heads of people who were violating Anandpur by urinating in the vicinity and  had them washed and redistributed to poor Sikhs (Bachitaar Natak). What's in the Guru's golak belongs to the panth. If we had surplus - okay, but we have plenty of poor and disadvantaged  Sikh brothers and sisters. It's not like we don't invariably start supplying gairSikhs with langar whenever there is a crisis either (like we can see now - yet again). So people do have a point, whether you like it or not. 

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10 hours ago, proactive said:

If it's the farmers, the oft repeated lie that farmers borrow to show off while the truth is that farmers either borrow to be able to farm their land or sit at home and die of starvation. But on non-Sikhs it's never their fault and we should be helping them no matter if their situation was self inflicted. 

You have to face the truth that when a fair few farmers do well, they straight away start posing, and start filling up their children's heads with supremacist notions.  That's not to excuse not helping them, but some do seem to bite the hand that feeds them in a crisis once things have got better. This don't help.

People are like: if you're so great and special, why not go to other farmers who (we all know) practically run the state for help with your issues?

This is just another example of how casteism blows up in Sikh faces. You know I heard things had got so twisted over there that only the families of people who killed themselves with a specific pesticide  (that too provided by the  state!) were eligible for any compensation by the state!   And I don't think certain people will ever really understand how backwards thinking can be there, because of some IQ deficiency.  Meanwhile the panth is going into bad territory as a consequence.  Bhai gurdas seems acutely aware of this, don't know how good the translation is though?

 

ਉਠੇ ਗਿਲਾਨੀ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਰਤੇ ਪਾਪ ਭ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ।

The world gets engrossed in remorseful activities and sin and corruption prevail.

 

ਵਰਨਾਵਰਨ ਨਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਖਹਿ ਖਹਿ ਜਲਨ ਬਾਂਸ ਅੰਗਿਆਰਾ।

Different sections(castes) of society develop hatred for one another and finish themselves through squabbles as the bamboos, due to their mutual friction, producing fire burn themselves as well as others.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੭ ਪੰ. ੩

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59 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You have to face the truth that when a fair few farmers do well, they straight away start posing, and start filling up their children's heads with supremacist notions.  That's not to excuse not helping them, but some do seem to bite the hand that feeds them in a crisis once things have got better. This don't help.

People are like: if you're so great and special, why not go to other farmers who (we all know) practically run the state for help with your issues?

This is just another example of how casteism blows up in Sikh faces. You know I heard things had got so twisted over there that only the families of people who killed themselves with a specific pesticide  (that too provided by the  state!) were eligible for any compensation by the state!   And I don't think certain people will ever really understand how backwards thinking can be there, because of some IQ deficiency.  Meanwhile the panth is going into bad territory as a consequence.  Bhai gurdas seems acutely aware of this, don't know how good the translation is though?

 

ਉਠੇ ਗਿਲਾਨੀ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਰਤੇ ਪਾਪ ਭ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ।

The world gets engrossed in remorseful activities and sin and corruption prevail.

 

ਵਰਨਾਵਰਨ ਨਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਖਹਿ ਖਹਿ ਜਲਨ ਬਾਂਸ ਅੰਗਿਆਰਾ।

Different sections(castes) of society develop hatred for one another and finish themselves through squabbles as the bamboos, due to their mutual friction, producing fire burn themselves as well as others.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੭ ਪੰ. ੩

Farming apart from that by big landowners is not profitable so what are farmers to do? Either they sell up everything in the hope that they can get their kids married abroad and then the whole family can migrate. Or they send their kids abroad through dodgy travel agents or they borrow money and then farm their own land or take more land on mamla. They then have to sell the produce to the govt at set rates which are never economic and very rarely in a good year will the farmer make a profit. There's no doubt you have idiots who big up their caste but that's not the norm in Punjab. 

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18 minutes ago, proactive said:

Farming apart from that by big landowners is not profitable so what are farmers to do? Either they sell up everything in the hope that they can get their kids married abroad and then the whole family can migrate. Or they send their kids abroad through dodgy travel agents or they borrow money and then farm their own land or take more land on mamla. They then have to sell the produce to the govt at set rates which are never economic and very rarely in a good year will the farmer make a profit.

You see, I think the problem is economical, but people are a bit slow to adapt out there. I mean, even my own family tell me that things don't change very much in the pend. So we have to fight on two fronts. Not only do we have to develop a modern economy that doesn't rely on large scale agriculture so much (not only because of Delhi politics, but also nature with rapid climate change), but we also have to change the mindsets of people over there.  Which is no easy task. Right now, it's a sociopathic society which has no value for knowledge that makes societies more sophisticated and as a consequence, more cohesive, as thus able to collectively achieve greater goals. They have crabs in a bucket mentality and many (due to caste) have an undue sense of entitlement.   It blows my mind, that even after emigrating abroad for well over a century, and living in, and actually playing a big part in helping western, modern society itself develop (like in Canada and even the UK), apnay still don't learn. I'm seriously starting to believe it is some neurobiological thing - if so, we need to start getting the genes of the best brains into our quom en masse. We can't keep going around in circles like this, it's getting critical. What really kills me is how even apnay raised outside of that in more 'progressive' climes still make excuses for backwardsness amongst our lot.  If we carry on like, I think we all know the score. It's a ruthless competitive world out there. Can we afford to keep shafting each other? This thing is not sustainable, and will implode soon.  

 

Quote

There's no doubt you have idiots who big up their caste but that's not the norm in Punjab. 

Come on. There is a whole movie and music industry based around this. It is normalised. Plus casteists have long infiltrated the universities out there too. 

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5 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know what Gurjant, there is historical evidence that even in dasmesh padshah's time, the tankhai fines collected were used to support poor Sikhs. Guru ji wasn't inhumane to nonSikhs but they undeniably did focus on building up and strengthening the panth that they established. You can't be in denial about this. I mean they even had the dastaars took off the heads of people who were violating Anandpur by urinating in the vicinity and  had them washed and redistributed to poor Sikhs (Bachitaar Natak). What's in the Guru's golak belongs to the panth. If we had surplus - okay, but we have plenty of poor and disadvantaged  Sikh brothers and sisters. It's not like we don't invariably start supplying gairSikhs with langar whenever there is a crisis either (like we can see now - yet again). So people do have a point, whether you like it or not. 

Start with exactly that. And build in that direction.  I'm all for it. That's my point. Be for it. 

Be for the organizations that are for it. Make new ones that are for it. 

Be for having enough, having enough for those around you, having enough beyond that. 

I'm all for self determination, and collaboration. 

But our threads on stuff like that are empty. 

So let's frame it in the positive. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, proactive said:

Unfortunately when a great man is gone so many stories are made up about him even when these stories are used as justification to undo all the great work that he did in his life. What are the circumstance of Santji having built a Mandir? Did he allow that Mandir as is the norm to restrict lower castes from going to the Mandir? If you have so much knowledge that you can bring something obscure like this up then come up with the whole story.

 

Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale is saying in a speech that is on YouTube that he made a mandir in a village that didn't have one.  Take your arrogant stance and find it.  Maybe it will do you some good 

Do you actually not understand the idiocy of your statement there? So a Gurmukh should be building a mosque because there is no mosque in his village.

The Gurmukh who I was referring to is Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale. "According to a Gurmukh a sufficient reason would be because the Muslims or hindus dont have one in the village." According to Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale action it justified.  

Since you like only putting Sikhs issue first and the caste system is a problem within Sikhs and mismanagement of Gurdwaras is an issue.  Go out there and start to resolve these very issues in the Gurdwara.   Go tell the jatt he can't build a separate Gurdwara in the pind  from the dalit.  And go tell anyone who is  mismanaging the Gurdwara golak that you will hire accountants to do an audit on their accounts.  Once you control the funds, you can put those funds to help ONLY Sikhs.

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33 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale is saying in a speech that is on YouTube that he made a mandir in a village that didn't have one.  Take your arrogant stance and find it.  Maybe it will do you some good 

 

 

The Gurmukh who I was referring to is Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale. "According to a Gurmukh a sufficient reason would be because the Muslims or hindus dont have one in the village." According to Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale action it justified.  

Since you like only putting Sikhs issue first and the caste system is a problem within Sikhs and mismanagement of Gurdwaras is an issue.  Go out there and start to resolve these very issues in the Gurdwara.   Go tell the jatt he can't build a separate Gurdwara in the pind  from the dalit.  And go tell anyone who is  mismanaging the Gurdwara golak that you will hire accountants to do an audit on their accounts.  Once you control the funds, you can put those funds to help ONLY Sikhs.

You obviously don't understand how debates work. It's not up to me to find something that you have used to defend your stance, it's up to you to find it and post it and with that we can look at the context of why Santji  (if he did) built the Mandir. 

So if Gurmukhs are meant to be going around building the places of worship of non-Sikhs then surely in history you should able to provide thousands if not hundreds of examples, did Bhai Gurdas build non-Sikh places of worship, how about Baba Budha Ji, How about Baba Deep Singh etc. If should also come across countless Guru Ki Maseets and Guru Ka Mandirs in all the towns founded by the Gurus. 

The rest of your post is just a diversion technique. You want that Sikhs should not be criticising the SJW and leftists of KA but should instead be leaving them alone. 

Also since you seem to be an expert in bringing historic evidence to back up your points, then tell us how you justify KA's subversion of Langar by taking it to places where there is no Gurdwara or Guru Granth Sahib. Also Daswand was always used for Panthic causes, so why is KA asking for Sikhs to give them Daswand which they know that they give the vast majority 90% to non-Sikhs. Also can Daswand be used to provide a salary to someone like Ravi Singh who is not undertaking a Panthic service and the same goes for the amount of £200,000 a year that is used for all salaries and benefits that KA gives to its employees. 

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2 hours ago, proactive said:

You obviously don't understand how debates work. It's not up to me to find something that you have used to defend your stance, it's up to you to find it and post it and with that we can look at the context of why Santji  (if he did) built the Mandir. 

So if Gurmukhs are meant to be going around building the places of worship of non-Sikhs then surely in history you should able to provide thousands if not hundreds of examples, did Bhai Gurdas build non-Sikh places of worship, how about Baba Budha Ji, How about Baba Deep Singh etc. If should also come across countless Guru Ki Maseets and Guru Ka Mandirs in all the towns founded by the Gurus. 

The rest of your post is just a diversion technique. You want that Sikhs should not be criticising the SJW and leftists of KA but should instead be leaving them alone. 

Also since you seem to be an expert in bringing historic evidence to back up your points, then tell us how you justify KA's subversion of Langar by taking it to places where there is no Gurdwara or Guru Granth Sahib. Also Daswand was always used for Panthic causes, so why is KA asking for Sikhs to give them Daswand which they know that they give the vast majority 90% to non-Sikhs. Also can Daswand be used to provide a salary to someone like Ravi Singh who is not undertaking a Panthic service and the same goes for the amount of £200,000 a year that is used for all salaries and benefits that KA gives to its employees. 

Is that true about Dasvsndh only for Panthic causes? 
 

what about ‘Sarbat da bhalla’ ?

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12 hours ago, proactive said:

You obviously don't understand how debates work. It's not up to me to find something that you have used to defend your stance, it's up to you to find it and post it and with that we can look at the context of why Santji  (if he did) built the Mandir. 

So if Gurmukhs are meant to be going around building the places of worship of non-Sikhs then surely in history you should able to provide thousands if not hundreds of examples, did Bhai Gurdas build non-Sikh places of worship, how about Baba Budha Ji, How about Baba Deep Singh etc. If should also come across countless Guru Ki Maseets and Guru Ka Mandirs in all the towns founded by the Gurus. 

The rest of your post is just a diversion technique. You want that Sikhs should not be criticising the SJW and leftists of KA but should instead be leaving them alone. 

Also since you seem to be an expert in bringing historic evidence to back up your points, then tell us how you justify KA's subversion of Langar by taking it to places where there is no Gurdwara or Guru Granth Sahib. Also Daswand was always used for Panthic causes, so why is KA asking for Sikhs to give them Daswand which they know that they give the vast majority 90% to non-Sikhs. Also can Daswand be used to provide a salary to someone like Ravi Singh who is not undertaking a Panthic service and the same goes for the amount of £200,000 a year that is used for all salaries and benefits that KA gives to its employees. 

You know how charitable organizations work right?

Least you see Ravi's books. 

Which group do you recommend we support?

Can we see their books?

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being played like fiddles by GOI and PUnjab Government  during this lockdown

Sikh organisations all over punjab are rushing to feed 'poor' migrant workers but the truth is we are being played :
https://www.facebook.com/panth.pratham/videos/832374407262875/UzpfSTEwMDAwMjIxODM5MTIyODoyODY3NDU5NjIwMDA0NjIz/

this is bhaiyas complaining about langar:

https://www.facebook.com/panth.pratham/videos/263542907998640/UzpfSTEwMDAwMjIxODM5MTIyODoyODY3Mjg3NzkwMDIxODA2/

honestly we rush in and get our own pockets emptied, and they laugh at us whilst our own poor sikhs sikhligars, mazhabi and kisan sikh families are suffering

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On 4/1/2020 at 12:21 AM, genie said:

Here is my list of current problems we face as a kaum.

  •  Traveling around giving aid / langar to non-sikhs. This thought was put into Sikh psyche as a strategy to destroy Sikhs from within by the enemy who wanted to move Sikhs away from position of strength to weakness. Guru ka langar never went around the world helping non-sikhs like this. Guru Ka langar was based on giving langar to the local sangat community. However was the non-sikh poor masses who came to the Sikhs and gurdwara's to get langar and get parchar to convert to Sikhi that made non-sikhs want to be a Sikh. This current innovation which has been created and run by idiots and is wasting sangats money giving langar away for free with no benefits for the kaum. The biggest gift a Sikh can give to a non-sikh is parchar because by that parchar the Sikh too will have to reform their character to live by what they preach.
  • Not having well armed sewadaar guards of Gurdwara's. Safety and security of guru's house and his congregation should be paramount yet what do we see today? any afghan ahmed abdali, isis salafi muhammad musin, mughal aurangzeb can walk in and kill without any hindrance like we seen recently. What is the fall out? Sikhs will stop coming to gurdwara's and thus gurdwara commitee's lose income and gurdwara shuts down eventually. The non-muslim hating conquest loving isis type jihadi mullah nutjob wins as sikhi is seen as weak and finished eventually because gurdwara's are no longer safe spaces for people wanting to worship and congregate.
  •  Sikhs of sarbat da bhulla mindset. Well meaning humanitarian liberal Sikhs but very gullible very politically and religiously naive not understand the full context of meaning of sarabat da bhalla and when to apply it. perhaps most of them have a sort of stockholm sydromme imprisoned by cultures and ideologies that are against Sikh interests and prevent their own community to survive.
  • Fake Sikh puppet leaders. They are only in it for their own power, fame/popularity contest or financial gain (eg recent akal takht jathedhars, sgpc leaders, DT harnaam singh, Badal dal, congressi captain amrinder singh, etc). We need to support leaders who openly fight for the interests of Sikhs without being shy about it.
  • Not having our own sovereign state nation. To conduct our own economic, military, religious and political affairs is the very reason we have so many problems. But its not necessary for the community to survive and thrive if other problems are dealt with.
  • Inter-faith marriages and lack of promotion of inter-caste or inter-race Sikh marriages. Sikhs should activity promote inter-caste marriages within punjabis at the very least and help promote those non-sikhs to convert to Sikhi to marry someone within the faith.

 

Biggest threat and problems

Alcohol/ addiction both in UK and india

Sikh caste division. Sikhs unable to be a single strong community. As we are to divided. 

Lack of strong leaders to steer faith in right direction. 

Sikhs becoming lost losing their faith 

Intermarriages. To many Sikhs wishing they were white. 

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On 4/4/2020 at 10:38 PM, Akalifauj said:

Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale is saying in a speech that is on YouTube that he made a mandir in a village that didn't have one.  Take your arrogant stance and find it.  Maybe it will do you some good 

Assuming that this is true, that doesn't mean Sikhs have to build places of worship for all religions in all places at all times. Situations change. Guru peacefully undertook martyrdom; later Guru ji took up the sword.

What might be appropriate for friendly Hindus in one specific village might not be the case for others elsewhere at another time.

The question is not whether any Gurmukh ever did anything to benefit a non-Sikh. It is this: is what Ravi Singh and KA doing, to the extent they are doing it and places they are doing it, beneficial for our Panth?

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