Sikhi and LGBTQ+ ...

[jkvlondon]

5 hours ago, puzzled said:

Sikh need to decide what is a sikh and what is not. we obviously know what a sikh is but today any gandu, kusra, kanjri, s1ut, hoe, smoker can call themselves a sikh    this is not right      such people would of not been considered sikhs       even people who cut their hair wouldnt of been considered sikhs.     the definition of a sikh is now so blurred that any1 can be a sikh regardless of lifestyle and belief  and with this blurred definition of a sikh the shamelessness and bezti is growing as well and its not right or fair for the rest of us. 

Guru ji has always told us who is a sikh , it is never the person who refuses to even go into the school building let alone hear and understand the lessons.

[puzzled]

12 hours ago, akaaliKhalsa1699 said:

nowadays, people are greedy and when they become leaders or "sants" they become corrupt. when sant baba kartar singh ji passed away and the sangat chose sant baba jarnail singh ji as the jathedar, sant jarnail singh ji refused to become the jathedar and told the sangat to give this seva to someone else (which was an act of humility) the sangat had to get the hukam from the panj pyare to get sant jarnail singh ji to agree. think of how humble people used to be. nowadays, people want to show themselves in the community when they become jathedar and they end up developing greed and ego. today, "sants" live in giant houses. during sant jis time, all sants were simple and humble people

 

Yh  a lot of journalists used to be surprised when they used see sant ji sitting on a manja with a sheet on top   that's it    

[Kau89r8]

Those leaders become corrupt because they get 'brought' out. .If one works hard and attains own wealth then there will be no need for them 'sell out' ....

[ipledgeblue]

On 5/6/2020 at 3:46 PM, puzzled said:

Just watched these   and its horrific! Lost for words    the singh in the first video with the pink pagh! 

Just showed it to my mum and sister and sister was like they should be killed!     and my mum agreed and she said she would shoot them!   

Even I wouldn't go that far!

They should simply be disowned and told to get out of the community. 

What do sikh families have to say when the girls are dressed like nangi. 

So even when queer or LGBTQ+, the men dress sensibly and the girls have to do their behzti with the way they dress, no one at home to give them a thapar??

And then the girl in the 1st vid and the man in the 2nd, they need to come out as bi? Why? What is the point in coming out as bisexual when it shouldn't stop you from having a grihast jeevan? Coming out as bisexual sikh is nonsense!

[ipledgeblue]

Special Guests:

• P.S. Kehal (they/them) - Writer & sociologist. Studies legacies of slavery & coloniality in faculty & higher ed.

• Soorma Singh (he/him) - Sikh YouTuber and social media influencer.

Discussion points:

1. What does Sikhi (Gurbani & Rehat) actually say about people who identify with LGBTQ or straightness?

2. What is the current status of LGBTQ & straight people in the Sikh community?

3. Does the idea of an Anand Karaj among LGBTQ peoples conflict with Gurbani? // What type of Straight Anand Karaj does not conflict with Gurbani?

4. What are some unique struggles that LGBTQ Sikhs go through? // What are some shared struggles between queer and trans Sikhs and Straight and cisgender Sikhs?

5. What are some ways we can help LGBTQ Sikhs? // What are some ways straight and cisgender Sikhs can stop harming LGBTQ Sikhs?

Time: 12 pm PST, 3 pm EST, 8 pm BST, 12:30 IST.

[puzzled]

1 hour ago, ipledgeblue said:

What do sikh families have to say when the girls are dressed like nangi. 

So even when queer or LGBTQ+, the men dress sensibly and the girls have to do their behzti with the way they dress, no one at home to give them a thapar??

And then the girl in the 1st vid and the man in the 2nd, they need to come out as bi? Why? What is the point in coming out as bisexual when it shouldn't stop you from having a grihast jeevan? Coming out as bisexual sikh is nonsense!

My mum said the same thing when I showed them this   she said they are sikh females yet they sitting there with their legs nangi. My sister is really modest and wouldn't dress like that but if she even did she knows there will be consequences. 

It's become a social norm now, their families dont mind. You should see the way they are dress at punjabi weddings. My family went to a anand karaj a few months back and the females had their bellies showing at the gurdwara, their heads weren't covered properly and the granthi did announced through the speaker that the females need to cover their heads. This is the state.

Its no longer seen as bad. Females have their legs nangi in front of their fathers and brothers, and their fathers and brothers dont mind,  it's not seen as wrong. There are a punjabi brother and sister on insta that do fitness and there are photos of the brother wearing a kacha and his sister wearing a bikini and they are hugging each other.  It's really normal for many punjabi families now. Females have their nang out in front of their brothers and fathers.  You truly can see how its kalyug. 

A woman should cover herself while a man should lower his gaze when he sees another woman. The only nangpuna a man is supposed to see is his wifes and no other womans and vice versa. This is not just a sikh thing but a dharmic thing.

Sant Harnam Singh ji says how when he was a teenager and walking through his pind a young woman saw him and veiled her face, when sant ji saw this he immediately looked to the ground and walked past her. He then says that every young man should lower his gaze when walking past a woman. These are dharmic teachings. Women used to veil their bodies from men while men used to walk past looking down. These days women get nangi in front of their brothers and fathers   let alone cover themselves in front of other men. 

Sant jarnail singh bhindrawale, whenever a woman used to come to him to talk or ask about a query or problem, he always used to make sure there were other people in the same room, never did he let a woman go into a room he was sitting in if there was no one else present.   But who understand these kind of things today... 

Imagine if the shaheed bibiyan of the past saw the undignified shameless appearance and ways of the punjabi women of today.

In dasam bani guru sahib when describing the scavenging witches he describes them as having their hair out and with long nails, the appearance of punjabi women today. 

Gurbani says dress in a way which does not attract negative attention. Yet that is what women live on and crave for, they just dont admit it and are in deep denial. They will never admit they dress for attention. If having their nang on display will give them that attention then they will do it. 

But hey  where sexist and oppressive and misogynists when we say this stuff  and we cant tell women what to do.  Then they wonder why they end up getting treated like scrap and everyone sees them as easy maal. 

Their loss .... 

[ipledgeblue]

  what the ?!*# happened to the banner on top. It really hurt my eyes, like the site got hacked by LGBTQ+ or something????? 

On 5/9/2020 at 5:52 PM, puzzled said:

 

In dasam bani guru sahib when describing the scavenging witches he describes them as having their hair out and with long nails, the appearance of punjabi women today. 

Gurbani says dress in a way which does not attract negative attention. Yet that is what women live on and crave for, they just dont admit it and are in deep denial. They will never admit they dress for attention. If having their nang on display will give them that attention then they will do it. 

Please send me which page in Dasam Granth?

 

There used to be a really nice dasamgranth website a few years ago before their database went down. There's some other decent ones but that site I always always used. 

 

It was similar to this but with English translations: http://www.sridasam.org/

the sikhitothemax interface I don't like but it seems ok. and searchgurbani.com is poor at searching in english!

 

Also read that in Adi Guru Granth Sahib before, about dressing in an attention way, someone posted it in a forum few months back. Can you please point towards the correct ang?

[puzzled]

1 hour ago, ipledgeblue said:

  what the ?!*# happened to the banner on top. It really hurt my eyes, like the site got hacked by LGBTQ+ or something????? 

Please send me which page in Dasam Granth?

 

There used to be a really nice dasamgranth website a few years ago before their database went down. There's some other decent ones but that site I always always used. 

 

It was similar to this but with English translations: http://www.sridasam.org/

the sikhitothemax interface I don't like but it seems ok. and searchgurbani.com is poor at searching in english!

 

Also read that in Adi Guru Granth Sahib before, about dressing in an attention way, someone posted it in a forum few months back. Can you please point towards the correct ang?

I read it about 2 yes back so I cant remember which ang it is on.  Possibly I read it in chandi di vaar. Guru sahib was writing about a battle scene between devte and demons  and as the battles were taking place the witches and ghouls are getting excited and scavenging on the corpses. The witches are described with their hair out and long nails. 

Historically in our culture and religion a woman with her hair out was considered very degraded. When a woman used to become a widow they used to undue her hair and open it    which meant she was a widow!  Witches are also described as having their hair out and deshelved.  Not even prostitutes used to have their hair open. Hindu scriptures tell women to keep their hair tied in a goth/plait and not have it out. While in sikhi a woman is supposed to keep her hair in a jooda just like a singh is supposed to. 

Last yr I was surprised when the singh doing katha at the gurdwara said that these days women resemble chudails/witches with their hair open and long nails!  Not many people doing katha have the guts to say stuff like that in today's politically correct times. 

 

[ChardikalaUK]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:58 PM, Kau89r8 said:

 

The number of Sikhs in that territory is minimal. Live in reality, not what happened 200 years ago.

The day of empires are over. Demographics matter. We won't even be a majority in Punjab in 50 years the way things are going. Mass Sikh emigration and immigration from other Indian states has caused this.

[$ingh $oorma]

On 5/5/2020 at 9:59 AM, Kau89r8 said:

Vaheguru has created two genders...male and female. Anand Karaj is between male and female. 

Please stop parsing together Gubani that does not go together. There is a reason why things are written the way they are and everything is contextual (there is no difference in your parsing and Guru’s son changing a word). Lets be educated Sikhs in Gurbani! In the above example there are two separate shabads... one speaks as an Ode to Woman and another discusses Foolishness. And as to homosexuality, Appe kare karaye aape... or Ham nahi changey bura nahi koye. So focus on yourself and be a good Sikh learn Gurbani but not just learn understand it’s meaning in context! And for all else don’t try to save the manmukhs (or in this case homosexuals) Guru will save them... remember... ਘੋਰ ਦੁਖ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਅਨਿਕ ਹਤ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਜਨਮ ਦਾਰਿਦ੍ਰੰ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਦੰ ॥  ਮਿਟੰਤ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਮਰੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੈਸੇ ਪਾਵਕ ਕਾਸਟ ਭਸਮੰ ਕਰੋਤਿ ॥੧੮॥ It is Guru’s Sikhi and Guru will take care of it... We can just try to learn and be “Sikhs”.

Also, please try to be careful with online translations. Ghar vaas, means familial life, comes from Sanskrit Ghar gristi, meaning having a family/household. An Eunuch is castarated male therefore as Gurbani says what is familial life to an eunuch (for it does not affect him as he can not have children)... as that shabad starts by saying what is deep water to a fish (for she can still swim and has no concern )... what is sky to a bird (for he can still fly)... together meaning depth of water doesn’t know the meaning of height of sky. Together shabad speaks of teaching someone who is not ready to learn and is foolish... it will mean nothing to that foolish person and he will only speak foolishness no matter how much you try to teach or guide them. It is important as i said to take in context so the next shabad says however with waheguru’s sift and shabad that foolish will be able to change and enter guru’s darbar. (SGGS 143). So please everyone don’t be manmukhs and read gurbani!