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Durga and Kali worshipping nihangs. what the heck is going on ?


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6 hours ago, jassa said:

and Guru Gobind Singh ji bowing in front of both ?

Guru Gobind singh didn't bow to her. 

Relation is when even durga is bowing in reverence to akal purakh then why worship her rather than akal purakh itself ? and why would guru sahib bow to her then 

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9 hours ago, jassa said:

Read these lines loud and again again and please improve my poor knowledge by telling me the meaning of "tuman duar par sees apna ghasvaun" and "tuman charan par surat hamari lagani" and yes please share the verse from gurbani which states durga is bowing head in front of guru Gobind singh ji. A son would never let a mother bow her head in front of her atleast not a son like Guru Gobind Singh ji. Leave every thing aside " Namo Jagat Mata " in jaap is reference to ? and its for sikhs or Guru gobind Singh ji himself bowing to mother of the universe. Please enlighten me "WITH FACTS" not stories of logical manmat

p

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gur parmeshwar eho jaan ...so it is fitting that Chandi would bow at feet of Guru Sahiban infact many of the old Murals which are being removed by' karsewa' show this fact  where the Devte Deviaan are doing pranaam and worship of Guru Sahiban . Mother/father is ek parmeshwar too .

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6 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

Guru Gobind singh didn't bow to her. 

Relation is when even durga is bowing in reverence to akal purakh then why worship her rather than akal purakh itself ? and why would guru sahib bow to her then 

ਸਬੈ ਸੰਤ ਉਬਾਰੀ ਬਰੰ ਬ੍ਯੂਹ ਦਾਤਾ ॥

ਨਮੋ ਤਾਰਣੀ ਕਾਰਣੀ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥

ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

ਸਦਾ ਰਾਖ ਲੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨੀ ॥੩੭॥੨੫੬॥
_____________________________________________________

Either this is not the bani of Guru Sahib or He is praising Bhawani there is no third real option. Third option is virtual and followed by confused who are being spoon feed and they dont spend time reading gurbani themselves.

You know where sarbloh granth starts from


Ek ong kar sri vaheguru ji ki fathe. Sri Bhawani ji sahae. Sri Maya Lakshmi ji sahae. Ustat Sri Maya Lakshmi ji ki. Sri Mukhwak Patshahi Dasvi.

This is the first line of Sri Sarloh Granth. Either this is not Gurus Bani or He starts Sarloh Granth with ustat of Durga/Chandi/Bhagauti/Bhawani or what ever you call her.

There is a reason why our Ardas has Prithme Bhagauti simer ke not Prithme Akal Purkh simar ke or Vaheguru Simar ke. If something is in front of our eyes loud and clear there is no need of proof.

Baki I dont follow any one or any books or lectures or cult or whatsoever. I read Gurbani and only Gurbani myself its easy to understand if you read it with blank mind and accept it as it is. If you start understanding Gurbani with presumed mind set as if you already know sikhi and Gurbani then it would be pick and choose. This verse fits my version of sikhi I accept it this doesnt lets not talk about it.

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Very nice to read from jassa and singhsta brothers. You both have actually read the Guru's Banis that many of us only hear from reading online arguments.

Please keep sharing your knowledge for others.

My question for jassa: why is there no such "devi" ustat in Guru Granth Sahib ji. Or, are the references to "mai" "mata" ( mother) to be taken to mean durga/bhawani/chandi/devi ?

Also, another pangti from Bachittar Natak also rings in my head " mai apna sut tohe nivaja". Perhaps if Akal Purakh Is father of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then "mother" is......?

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17 hours ago, jassa said:

Read these lines loud and again again and please improve my poor knowledge by telling me the meaning of "tuman duar par sees apna ghasvaun" and "tuman charan par surat hamari lagani"

  Let's look at your reasons point by point.   You started by saying

Durga is creation of Akalpurkh - Chandi di war. Read the exact lines tun hi durga saaj ke. God created durga she was not born but created. There are no biological father mother or conceiving of durga or her childhood.



Narsingh also doesn't have a father or mother, yet Dasam Bani says Narsingh was consumed by death.  


ਨਰਸਿੰਘਾਵਤਾਰੰ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੰ ॥

नरसिंघावतारं ॥ वहै काल मारं ॥

The incarnation Narsingh was also killed by KAL.


Being created with no parents doesn't give Durga some special status. Do you see how your point has no merit? Once we come to terms on this point we will move to your next point.

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9 hours ago, jassa said:

ਸਬੈ ਸੰਤ ਉਬਾਰੀ ਬਰੰ ਬ੍ਯੂਹ ਦਾਤਾ ॥

ਨਮੋ ਤਾਰਣੀ ਕਾਰਣੀ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥

ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

ਸਦਾ ਰਾਖ ਲੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨੀ ॥੩੭॥੨੫੬॥
_____________________________________________________

Either this is not the bani of Guru Sahib or He is praising Bhawani there is no third real option. Third option is virtual and followed by confused who are being spoon feed and they dont spend time reading gurbani themselves.

You know where sarbloh granth starts from


Ek ong kar sri vaheguru ji ki fathe. Sri Bhawani ji sahae. Sri Maya Lakshmi ji sahae. Ustat Sri Maya Lakshmi ji ki. Sri Mukhwak Patshahi Dasvi.

This is the first line of Sri Sarloh Granth. Either this is not Gurus Bani or He starts Sarloh Granth with ustat of Durga/Chandi/Bhagauti/Bhawani or what ever you call her.

There is a reason why our Ardas has Prithme Bhagauti simer ke not Prithme Akal Purkh simar ke or Vaheguru Simar ke. If something is in front of our eyes loud and clear there is no need of proof.

Baki I dont follow any one or any books or lectures or cult or whatsoever. I read Gurbani and only Gurbani myself its easy to understand if you read it with blank mind and accept it as it is. If you start understanding Gurbani with presumed mind set as if you already know sikhi and Gurbani then it would be pick and choose. This verse fits my version of sikhi I accept it this doesnt lets not talk about it.

If you have to revere Lakshmi "mata" and durga "mata", then what's the difference between dhoti-janeu clad pandit in mandar and YOU ??

What is uniqueness of sikhi ? Also why feel infuriated when RSS call you a sect of hindus then ?

then you have to agree you're hindu 

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46 minutes ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

If you have to revere Lakshmi "mata" and durga "mata", then what's the difference between dhoti-janeu clad pandit in mandar and YOU ??

What is uniqueness of sikhi ? Also why feel infuriated when RSS call you a sect of hindus then ?

then you have to agree you're hindu 

This hindu phobia is stopping you from being sikh. God is one and is defined in all religions if you are finding uniqueness in your God then you are creating your own God not following the actual God. 

As per Vedas :-

Na dvitityo Na triyaschthurtho naapyuchyate|

N a panchamo Na shshtah sapthmo naapyuchyate|

Nashtamo Na navamo dashamo naapyuchyate|

Yagna yetham devamekavritham veda||

Sa sarvassai vi pashyathi yachha praanathi yachhana|

Tamidam nigatam sah sa yesha yeka yekavrideka yeva|

Ya yetham devamekavritham veda||

Atharva 13.4[2]19-20

There is no second God, nor a third, nor is even a fourth spoken of

There is no fifth God or a sixth nor is even a seventh mentioned.

There is no eighth God, nor a ninth. Nothing is spoken about a tenth even.

This unique power is in itself. That Lord is only one, the only omnipresent. It is one and the only one.

More Examples

Ma chidanyad vishamsata Sakhyo ma rishanyatha|

Indramit srotha vrishanam sacha suthe

muhurukhya cha samshata||

Atharva 20.85.1

Friends! Do not praise and worship anything else, do not be doomed, praise and worship only the benevolent God Almighty, unitedly in this world, sing his glory, again and again.

[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4“na tasya pratima asti”
There is no image of Him.”

[Yajurveda 32:3]
“shudhama poapvidham”
“He is bodyless and pure.”

[Yajurveda 40:8]
“Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste”
“They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements” (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). “They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti.”
[Yajurveda 40:9]Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.

Opening phrase of Quran

(1) In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful.

(2) Praise be to Allah, the lord of the universe.

(3) The most gracious, the most merciful.

(4) Master of the Day of Judgment.

(5) You alone we worship, and [from] you alone we ask for help.

(6) Guide us [to] the straight path.

(7) The path of those on whom you have bestowed your grace, not of those who earned [your] wrath, nor of those who have gone astray.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is this God different praised in vedas and quran different from Akal Purkh. If its same why your trying to find the uniqueness in spirituality ?  Uniqueness is in sikhs and their actions and their mareyada. Other religions are corrupted by the followers and preachers God send Guru Nanak and now sikhi being corrupted on the name of a new God which is exclusive to the sikhi.

Akal Purkh literally means Immortal Ancestor which literally means in sankrit NirjarapaNyayoSit (निर्जरपण्ययोषित्) which is used for GOD in vedas. If I say Guru Gobind Singh ji bowed before Akalpurkh which is already used in vedas as a name for God was he a hindu ?

Guru Gobind Singh ji never invented a new God He followed the same God which is timeless. He just followed him with devotion and without corruption.

     

 
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8 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

  Let's look at your reasons point by point.   You started by saying
 



Narsingh also doesn't have a father or mother, yet Dasam Bani says Narsingh was consumed by death.  


ਨਰਸਿੰਘਾਵਤਾਰੰ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੰ ॥

नरसिंघावतारं ॥ वहै काल मारं ॥

The incarnation Narsingh was also killed by KAL.


Being created with no parents doesn't give Durga some special status. Do you see how your point has no merit? Once we come to terms on this point we will move to your next point.

Every Avtar comes with the duty and when its done they leave the earth. Narsingh's duty was to save Bhagat Parladh and destroy enemies of his bhakti. He did his job and merged in God let see what Guru Sahib has wrote about it.
ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਕਰਿਯੋ ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਫੇਰਿ ॥
ਦੀਨੋ ਸੰਘਾਰ ਸਬ ਇਮ ਅੰਧੇਰ ॥
ਸਬ ਦੁਸਟ ਅਰਿਸਟ ਦਿਨੇ ਖਪਾਇ ॥
ਪੁਨਿ ਲਈ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਹਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੪੧॥
Destroying all the tyrants and vicious people, Narsingh merged his light in the Supreme Light.41.
ਸਭ ਦੁਸਟ ਮਾਰਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਭੇਖ ॥
ਪੁਨ ਮਿਲ੍ਯੋ ਜਾਇ ਭੀਤਰ ਅਲੇਖ ॥
And that Imperceptible Lord-God merged again in His Own Self.

Now whats the duty of Durga
ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ; ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
Till evil people reside on earth and there is a need to wage war against them Durga will remain in the battlefield siding and protecting the warriors of Dharma irrespective of their religious belief. Once God decides there should be no more evil and good there should be no more wars he will merge Durga back in himself. Now any where Guru Sahib mentions about death of durga/chandi/bhagauti ? He mentions about deaths of all the avtars but durga ? When Guru Sahib is parsing durga its all in present tense. Can you talk with dead in present tense ?


Now lets see how it ends.
ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ, ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆ ॥
ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ, ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥

Did Guru sahib wrote the same for vishnu shiva brhama ram krishan narsingh etc ? That gives Durga a special status that by just singing her vaar you can be liberated.

Moreover there is only one Akal rest all is under kall but some are merged in him in past like Narsingh some will merge in him in future like Durga but at present Durga is ang sang of Khalsa like she was during Guru Gobind Singh jees time.

Moreover I shared writings of Gurusahib bowing in front of jagat Mata I am waiting for you to share some writings of Gurusahib in which Durga is bowing before him as you claimed.

 

ਸਬੈ ਸੰਤ ਉਬਾਰੀ ਬਰੰ ਬ੍ਯੂਹ ਦਾਤਾ ॥

ਨਮੋ ਤਾਰਣੀ ਕਾਰਣੀ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥

ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਨਮਸਤ੍ਯੰ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

ਸਦਾ ਰਾਖ ਲੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨੀ ॥੩੭॥੨੫੬॥

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59 minutes ago, jassa said:

This hindu phobia is stopping you from being sikh. God is one and is defined in all religions if you are finding uniqueness in your God then you are creating your own God not following the actual God. 

LMAO. First off, I do read vedas and upanishads, so please don't play that card against me. Having read Purusha suktam from both rig veda and yajur veda and even partly memorized it , I do know the purusha mentioned in the passages are same as purakh in sikhi .

Nowhere have I said god is NOT one or that its not same in all religions or that I am finding uniqueness in sikh god . 

Since you have quoted a passage from atharv veda, lets see that first 

The passage you quoted is from fourth book of atharva veda , but it is infact an adulation towards sun , I shall quote the same passage as you quoted in proper context,  it should be clear from following (your quoted part highlighted in red)

HYMN IV

A glorification of the Sun as the only Deity

 

1Down looking, on the ridge of sky Savitar goes to highest
   heaven.

2To misty cloud filled with his rays Mahendra goes encompassed
   round.

3Creator and Ordainer, he is Vāyu, he is lifted cloud.
4Rudra, and Mahādeva, he is Aryaman and Varuna.
5Agni is he, and Siirya, he is verily Mahāyama.
6Calves, joined, stand close beside him, ten in number, with one
   single head.

7From west to east they bend their way: when he mounts up he
   shines afar.

8His are these banded Maruts: they move gathered close like
   porters' thongs. 
p. 125
9To misty cloud filled with his rays Mahendra goes encompassed
   round,

10His are the nine supports, the casks set in nine several places
   here.

11He keeppeth watch o'er creatures, all that breatheth and that
   breatheth not.

12This conquering might hath entered him, He is the sole the
   simple One, the One alone.

13In him these Deities become simple and One
14Renown and glory, and force and cloud, the Brāhman's
   splendour, and food, and nourishment,

15To him who knoweth this God as simple and one.
16Neither second, nor third, nor yet fourth is he called;
17He is called neither fifth, nor sixth, nor yet seventh
18He is called neither eighth, nor ninth, nor yet tenth.
19He watcheth over creatures, all that breatheth and that breatheth
   not.
20This conquering might hath entered him. He is the sole, the
   simple One, the One alone,

21In him these Deities become simple and One
22Devotion and Religious Fervour, and renown and glory, and
   force and cloud, the Brāhman's splendour, and food and
   nourishment.

23And past and future, and Faith and lustre, and heaven and sweet
   oblation,

24To him who knoweth this God as simple and One.
25He, verily, is death, he is immortality, he is the monster, he is
   the fiend.

26He is Rudra, winner of wealth in the giving of wealth; in uttering
   homage he is the sacrificial exclamation Vashat duly employed.

27All sorcerers on earth obey with reverence his high behest.
28All constellations yonder, with the Moon, are subject to his will.
29He was brought forth from Day: and Day derives his origin.
   from him.

30He was brought forth from Night: and Night derives her origins
   from him.

31He was produced from Air: and Air derives its origin from him.
32He was produced from Wind: and Wind derives his origin from.
   him. 
p. 126
33From Heaven was he produced: and Heaven derives his origin
   from him.

34He sprang from regions of the sky: from him the heavenly
   regions sprang.

35He is the offspring of the Earth: Earth hath her origin from
   him.

36He was produced from fire: and fire derives its origin from
   him.

37He is the waters' offspring: and from him the waters were
   produced.

38From holy verses was he born: from him the holy verses
   sprang.

39He is the son of sacrifice: and sacrifice was born from him.

source : https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/av/av13004.htm

 

Ofcourse you can interpret this deity as either the sun (based on the poetic description especially in the beginning relating to the Sun, the physical sun in the sky ) 

OR 

As you do and most sikhs do, relate it to that one monotheistic, panentheistic being which we call akaal purakh .

Most hindus however interpret it as former. Best of luck in making them understand . 

OH BTW , since you have abstracted away the "sun" in above passages as akaal purakh, then why not abstract chandi as sword , or a creative destructive power of god, not related to the multi-armed lady dressed in a saree ?

1 hour ago, jassa said:

Opening phrase of Quran

(1) In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful.

(2) Praise be to Allah, the lord of the universe.

(3) The most gracious, the most merciful.

(4) Master of the Day of Judgment.

(5) You alone we worship, and [from] you alone we ask for help.

(6) Guide us [to] the straight path.

(7) The path of those on whom you have bestowed your grace, not of those who earned [your] wrath, nor of those who have gone astray.

Surah Al Fatihah , yes 

However many Surahs also say that you should wage war on infidels , how do you view the quran in that context ?

then there's concept of meccan and madinan verses, that when mohammad was in mecca he was apparently "revealed" peaceful verses of coexistence but later on when he went to madina, he started speaking against infidels ?

1 hour ago, jassa said:

How is this God different praised in vedas and quran different from Akal Purkh. If its same why your trying to find the uniqueness in spirituality ?  Uniqueness is in sikhs and their actions and their mareyada. Other religions are corrupted by the followers and preachers God send Guru Nanak and now sikhi being corrupted on the name of a new God which is exclusive to the sikhi.

I am one of those who are a strong proponent of "one god of all religions" theory . However , what makes you turn a blind eye to the ramifications of clear cut worshipping of hindu devi devte especially when sikhism is on the verge of being usurped by brahminism ?

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15 minutes ago, jassa said:

Moreover there is only one Akal rest all is under kall but some are merged in him in past like Narsingh some will merge in him in future like Durga but at present Durga is ang sang of Khalsa like she was during Guru Gobind Singh jees time

So she's not ang sang of hindus and hindutva movement who worships her ? If and when the hindu nationalistic movement has a fight with sikhs, whom will the durga support ? her hindu followers OR the sikh followers , especially considering hindu followers are far more in numbers 

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