Ancient Punjab

[MisterrSingh]

17 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Their women, intoxicated with drink and divested of robes, laugh and dance outside the walls of the houses in cities, without garlands and unguents, singing while drunken obscence songs of diverse kinds that are as musical as the bray of the <banned word filter activated> or the bleat of the camel. In intercourse they are absolutely without any restraint, and in all other matters they act as they like. Maddened with drink, they call upon one another, using many endearing epithets. Addressing many drunken exclamations to their husbands and lords, the fallen women among the Vahikas, without observing restrictions even on sacred days, give themselves up to dancing.

Sounds like my kind of gals. What a hoot.

[Ranjeet01]

5 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Do you think he would of been able to invade the entire subcontinent? Porus had quite small empire. After defeating Porus they would of had face the mighty Nanda dynasty who were far bigger than what Porus had, Nanda dynasty later became the Mauryan Empire, biggest empire South Asia has ever produced.  I guess we would never know. 

Yh Punjab would of mainly been forest in those days.

Its hard imagine what Punjab was like before the invasions because the culture of the invaders had such a huge influence on the current culture.

But from these ancient txts we can say that Punjabis were quite unorthodox not very dharmic, a rowdy bunch  lol  

Punjabis never followed the rules. 

Alex would never got any further because he would have faced a mutiny on his hands.

He left with his tails between his legs.

[Ranjeet01]

32 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Seems Brahmins never have really held high social status in Punjab, and communities that would of traditionally been considered low in other regions of India were not necessarily low in Punjab. Explains why Punjab has more of a Biradari system rather than the Varna System and order. 

Theres to be a lot of getting drunk and dancing around, even the women.

Other than that it seems Punjabi women had a bit of a reputation even back then!

Very interesting stuff though 

 

“that (region) where these five rivers, emerging from the mountains flow, this Aratta (country) is called Balhika where the Arya should not stay even for two days”.

"But on seeing the dharma practiced in the land of the five rivers, the grandfather cried, "Shame!". They are outcasts. They are born from servants. They are the performers of wicked deeds. That is the reason the grandfather condemned the dharma in the land of the five rivers. Though they followed their own dharma and that of their varna, he did not honour it."

"Having gone to the Bahlikas, I learnt the following. There, one first becomes a brahmana and then becomes a kshatriya. Thereafter, one becomes a vaishya, a shudra and finally a barber. Having become a barber, one once again becomes a brahmana. Having become a brahmana there, one is once again as a slave. In every family, there is only one virtuous brahmana. Everyone else follows one's desires. The Gandharas, the Madrakas and the Bahlikas possess limited intelligence."

A foremost one among Brahmanas, venerable in years while reciting old histories, said these words, blaming the Vahikas and Madrakas, One should always avoid the Vahikas, those impure people that are out of the pail of virtue. I remember from the days of my youth that a slaughter-ground for kine and a space for storing intoxicating spirits always distinguish the entrances of the abodes of the (Vahika) kings. On some very secret mission I had to liv e among the Vahikas. In consequence of such residence the conduct of these people is well known to me. There is a town of the name of Sakala (Sialkot), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jattikas. The practices of these people are very censurable. They drink the liquor called Gauda, and eat fried barley with it. They also eat beef with garlics. They also eat cakes of flour mixed with meat, and boiled rice that is bought from others. Of righteous practices they have none. Their women, intoxicated with drink and divested of robes, laugh and dance outside the walls of the houses in cities, without garlands and unguents, singing while drunken obscence songs of diverse kinds that are as musical as the bray of the <banned word filter activated> or the bleat of the camel. In intercourse they are absolutely without any restraint, and in all other matters they act as they like. Maddened with drink, they call upon one another, using many endearing epithets. Addressing many drunken exclamations to their husbands and lords, the fallen women among the Vahikas, without observing restrictions even on sacred days, give themselves up to dancing.

In days of yore, when the eternal religion was reverenced in all countries, the Grandsire, observing the practices of the country of the five rivers, cried fie on them. Fie on the Arattas and the people of the country of the five rivers !

Beginning with the Matsyas, the residents of the Kuru and the Panchala countries, the Naimishas as well and the other respectable peoples, the pious among all races are conversant with the eternal truths of religion. This cannot be said of the Madrakas (Madra/Madrakas are a frontier tribe of Aratta, centered in North Punjab) and the crooked-hearted race that resides in the country of the five rivers.

The Vahikas resent beneficial counsels ; as regards the Madrakas there are none amongst those. Thou, O Salya, art so. Thou shouldst not reply to me. The Madrakas are regarded on Earth as the dirt of every nation. So the Madra woman is called the dirt of the whole female sex. They that have for their practices the drinking of spirits, the violation of the beds of their preceptors, the destruction of the embryo by procuring miscarriage, and the robbing of other people's wealth, there is no sin that they have not. Fie on the Arattas and the people of the country of the five rivers. Knowing this, be silent. Do not seek to oppose me. Do not let me slay Keshava and Arjuna, having slain thee first.'

The regions are called by the name of Arattas. The people residing there are called the Vahikas. The lowest of Brahmanas also are residing there from very remote times. They are without the Veda and without knowledge, without sacrifice and without the power to assist at other's sacrifices. They are all fallen and many amongst them have been begotten by Sudras upon other peoples' girls. The gods never accept any gifts from them. The Prasthalas, the Madras, the Gandharas, the Arattas, those called Khasas, the Vasatis, the Sindhus and the Sauviras are almost as blamable in their practices.

That sounds like a lot of today's Pakistanis 

[puzzled]

21 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Sounds like my kind of gals. What a hoot.

Lmao 

Bro it's kind of confusing though isn't it. Is Punjabi "culture" worse now or was it worse then? Or is it just the same! 

From when these texts were written around 2000 years ago to the present times have Punjabis always been the same! Or were there changes in the middle aswell.

Like when did the coy, shy Punjaban wrapped in Phulkari exist? Did she even exist! 

We often blame moneh for drunk and morally corrupt behaviour and ruining Punjabi "culture" and Sikh culture, did they even destroy it though!? Or are they simply behaving how their ancestors behaved, behaviour that has  been passed down 2000 years! Are the current lot even ruining anything! 

[Ranjeet01]

4 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Lmao 

Bro it's kind of confusing though isn't it. Is Punjabi "culture" worse now or was it worse then? Or is it just the same! 

From when these texts were written around 2000 years ago to the present times have Punjabis always been the same! Or were there changes in the middle aswell.

Like when did the coy, shy Punjaban wrapped in Phulkari exist? Did she even exist! 

We often blame moneh for drunk and morally corrupt behaviour and ruining Punjabi "culture" and Sikh culture, did they even destroy it though!? Or are they simply behaving how their ancestors behaved, behaviour that has  been passed down 2000 years! Are the current lot even ruining anything! 

The rot was set in Punjab a couple of thousands of years ago.

I think you have answered your own question.

[Jai Tegang!]

3 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Lmao 

Bro it's kind of confusing though isn't it. Is Punjabi "culture" worse now or was it worse then? Or is it just the same! 

From when these texts were written around 2000 years ago to the present times have Punjabis always been the same! Or were there changes in the middle aswell.

Like when did the coy, shy Punjaban wrapped in Phulkari exist? Did she even exist! 

We often blame moneh for drunk and morally corrupt behaviour and ruining Punjabi "culture" and Sikh culture, did they even destroy it though!? Or are they simply behaving how their ancestors behaved, behaviour that has  been passed down 2000 years! Are the current lot even ruining anything! 

I think this is default behavior across all cultures. It takes effort to refine and lift up, but then naturally it collapses back.

[MisterrSingh]

14 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Lmao 

Bro it's kind of confusing though isn't it. Is Punjabi "culture" worse now or was it worse then? Or is it just the same! 

From when these texts were written around 2000 years ago to the present times have Punjabis always been the same! Or were there changes in the middle aswell.

Like when did the coy, shy Punjaban wrapped in Phulkari exist? Did she even exist! 

We often blame moneh for drunk and morally corrupt behaviour and ruining Punjabi "culture" and Sikh culture, did they even destroy it though!? Or are they simply behaving how their ancestors behaved, behaviour that has  been passed down 2000 years! Are the current lot even ruining anything! 

I always find it amusing how we as a species seem to measure the degradation of morals and decorum from a limited window of time, mostly from our grandparents' era to our own current time. To us humans who have, at most, if we're lucky, a 60 year span where we're firing on all cylinders, 60 years is absolutely nothing in the big scheme of things. Even tens of thousands of years are moderate. These things have been going on for so, so long before what we know today was even seeded. But there's always a period of recovery and enlightenment, usually with the arrival of elevated spiritual beings, and things improve. But when those lessons are gradually forgotten, the rot sets in again. It's cyclical.

[puzzled]

14 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I always find it amusing how we as a species seem to measure the degradation of morals and decorum from a limited window of time, mostly from our grandparents' era to our own current time. To us humans who have, at most, if we're lucky, a 60 year span where we're firing on all cylinders, 60 years is absolutely nothing in the big scheme of things. Even tens of thousands of years are moderate. These things have been going on for so, so long before what we know today was even seeded. But there's always a period of recovery and enlightenment, usually with the arrival of elevated spiritual beings, and things improve. But when those lessons are gradually forgotten, the rot sets in again. It's cyclical.

We tend to look back and think our ancestors were saintly, people with high moral standards, but they weren't!  Punjabi people love to paint the past very rosy but in reality, it really never was.  

Women were getting drunk and doing giddha outside their houses 2000 years ago, like w.tf ! 

[puzzled]

30 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The rot was set in Punjab a couple of thousands of years ago.

I think you have answered your own question.

Can't really point fingers at anyone, its always been like that ...

[Not2Cool2Argue]

4 hours ago, puzzled said:

We tend to look back and think our ancestors were saintly, people with high moral standards, but they weren't!  Punjabi people love to paint the past very rosy but in reality, it really never was.  

Women were getting drunk and doing giddha outside their houses 2000 years ago, like w.tf ! 

We dont know the history of  panjab beyond a 1000 years ago.

Look at britain, they had so many different peoples and cultures, the anglos, then saxons, then normans, were pagans to roman catholics to anglican christians. 

Look at spain from having moor overlords to baltic ppl. 

I think those arratas were probably eventually conquered and replaced by aryans. So only the low caste probably have arrata ancestory.the low castes may includes jatts as well. Or replaced with other ppl. Im sure panjab had waves like aryans, greeks, turks, arabs, mongols, rajasthani. Panjabi ppl r the most mixed, in one family you can have a black looking kid, arab looking, chinese looking and south indian looking and whitish.. My family does.

Or this person is only talking about kings and city folk. Maybe rural folk were ok? 

Also remember Ashokas kingdom stretched all the way to afghanistan, so at one time he may have had pathans being pacifist Buddhists and then they reverted.

So im sure panjab had many civilizing influences of which islam could be one as well. Thats probably what turned made the now recent panjabi culture. Of women being modest and hidden. 

One of our first ancestors were probably tribal folks. You know practicing human sacrifice ans rain dances etc. To be honest, panjabi culture still creeps me out and reminds me of tribal things. Like hanging leaves on the doorway when a son is born, inviting khusre to dance, burning patole/dolls for rain, the kala jaadu.