Sant Ji's views on "monay"

[californiasardar1]

8 hours ago, TigerForce1 said:

I understand and share your frustration and I’m don’t think it is always wrong to shame someone to wake them up.  ‘I also agee with everything that Sant Ji has said’

The present situation is that Punjab and its youth have been in slumber for the best part of 3 decades now and finally people are waking to the States plans to eliminate their culture, religion and livelihoods.  Those people are asking questions and re-evaluating their positions within the state. No doubt Sikhi is going to answer many of their questions and many will become Kesadhari as direct result to recent events.

The backdrop is very similar to the 80’s, Sant Ji was seeing a generation that was in slumber and needed waking up.  Sant had the personality to insult them at the same time embrace them as their children.  He was like a father looking after his children and him scolding his children to do the right thing can never be questioned.

Fast forward to present times.  We have the same backdrop and we have the same hunger to take on the State but we do not have a Leader on the level of Sant Ji.  We have some personalities that are coming forward and no doubt many have been planted and many will doubted.  If we shoot down all the potential Leaders such as Deep Sidhu and Lakha Sidhana, then we are in danger of deterring any future Leadership that could prove to be the only voice that looks after Sikh interests .  Only time will tell but we need to give people a chance and we need to stay united.

Lastly I’d like to add Sant Ji also said ‘that our people should not engage in a bharaa Marroo Jangh’.  Let’s not fight between ourselves.  

 

I agree with you that Sant Ji had a special personality that allowed him to be critical and still be welcoming/embracing. I want to add this: he was obviously capable of making a more spiritual and cerebral appeal to Sikhs to keep their kesh. But he knew his audience of pendus, and he tried to make more emotional appeals that involving shame. Perhaps it worked somewhat back then. But I doubt such appeals would work nowadays. As I said before, our community has no sharam anymore.

 

You make interesting observations about the parallels between the political situation today and that of the 1980s. Ironically, Sant Ji foreshadows what would happen in the video I posted (a bit earlier than my time stamp). He basically asks the audience whether they want to save themselves from a beating now or whether they wanted to sit around getting beaten for 6 months - 1 year and then take the right path. You can just change his "6 months - 1 year" to a different timeline, and it continues to apply. If the Sikhs had united and won their rights in the 1980s, we would not be in a precarious situation today.

 

[MisterrSingh]

15 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The problem with some moneh is that they get confused with what is acceptable and not acceptable. The moneh women are the most confused, and highly influenced by "trends" , which is why this LGBTQ and interfaith is being pushed. 

I think it may come from  the fact we try as Sikhs to be many things to many people and although we are not dogmatic we have do hard rules and boundaries that should enforced. 

We need to hold firm on that.

There's a growing movement in the Western black community that is getting to grips with some of the things you've described above. It's very interesting to see how the guys feel they're being thrown under the bus by their women who've adopted destructive "foreign" ideologies () that have made them hostile to their own bandeh and their overall long-term prospects as a race. 

These guys are unique in as much as they're clearly beginning to say, "The white progressive is NOT our ally. The racist is what he is, but their counterparts are in some ways more destructive for us. These progressive whites are introducing practices to our people that will kill us through so-called love." These guys aren't even religious but they're totally speaking out against the destructive influences of the gangsta image, the black predilection for being drawn to rap music and sports, etc. The response from young black teens listening to these guys is like they're being told something from another galaxy; they're receptive to it, but it's all totally new to these youngsters, and they seem to be taking it in. 

We will never have this, because our "preaching" comes with religious conditions from the get-go. The best way I can describe it is trying to impose the square root of pi on a person when all they asked is for the answer to 2+2. The reality is that folks aren't receptive to faith and religion. They want to be spoken to like a person on a direct basis not sermonised to with concepts they will always struggle to understand. If we aren't there to help people in our community who are in a difficult head space, they will leave us. That doesn't mean they're bad or scum; it just means they're lost, and if we can't help them they'll find other groups who can.

[puzzled]

9 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

I am going to have to push back on this.

If anything, I think the Punjabi monay are even worse than the NRI mona. When I went to Punjab, I was ridiculed many times for "looking like a baba." Punjabis like to use the term "modern Sikh" as a Sikh who cuts hair and/or trims their beard (I'm sure most of them don't know what the real definition of "modern" is).

When I went Punjab I was told I look like a "gyani" by many of them. My cousin said everyone is cutting their hair here, why are go keeping it now.

But imo there still is some sort of reverence towards dharam in Punjab, very limited, but something is there. There is some sort of fear in a higher power, a little bit, lol 

But I don't think this is because of Sikhi but because other superstitions they believe in. There is a lot of overlap when it comes to practices in Punab. 

[californiasardar1]

1 hour ago, puzzled said:

That's because you come from a family with some Sikhi in it and some proper Sikhs. So the moneh in your family have some respect for Sikhi, there is a Sikh presence in your family.

As someone that comes from a family which is depraved of any dharam, and as the only person who keeps my hair and beard from a family of around 80 people, the things I heard and seen are the complete opposite of your experience. And not just my family, but family friends, friends, and distant relatives as well. Like I said, I myself used to take the mick of Singhs when I was a mona, simply because that's what everyone around me was doing. 

This might be hard to believe, and most people on here probably won't believe this, but back in school a "sikh" girl I was talking to was bullying a Singh with learning disability I think he had autism. She then said to me "shall I spit on his gutti"   to which I told her not to do that because its lame, and she didn't do it. These are the kind of mona "sikh" kids I grew up around me. 

But this isn't the biggest issue, its the behaviors they're pushing into Sikhi and making it a norm. Who are the main supporters of the LGBT agenda in our community today? its mainly Western born Sikh women. Give it another 5-10 years and we'll be having LGBT anand karajs. Rather than changing their behaviors, monas push all this crap into Sikhi. 

Monas are responsible for the cultural changes(negative) in our community, Singhs in no way have any control in these changes as they make such a small %    the direction we are heading, the negative social changes taking place are all pushed by monas! Even if one tries to reverse these changes, it will fail! 

Who is trying to make interfaith marriages a norm? who is having out doors/beach anand karaj? who is pushing for LGBT anand karaj ?

Imagine if a Singh from 100 years ago saw the state of Sikhs at a Sikh reception party today, would he recognise his Sikhs ?  or would he think he took the wrong direction and ended up at a kotha ? 

 

 

 

Your experiences and observations do not at all surprise me.

Most of my family are monay, and when I was growing up, almost all of the Sikh families in our local community were monay. I got teased more at the gurdwara than at my local school.

Just to pick out one random example (out of many), I remember I missed the gurdwara one weekend as part of a school field trip to watch a football game. The next weekend when I went to the gurdwara, my monay "friends" thought it was amusing to pretend that they had watched the game on TV and that I had been caught on camera, which prompted the television commentator to wonder out loud about the "onion-head" sitting in the stadium.

[MisterrSingh]

16 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

I am going to have to push back on this.

If anything, I think the Punjabi monay are even worse than the NRI mona. When I went to Punjab, I was ridiculed many times for "looking like a baba." Punjabis like to use the term "modern Sikh" as a Sikh who cuts hair and/or trims their beard (I'm sure most of them don't know what the real definition of "modern" is).

That's unfortunate. I have experienced what you've described above when I was in my teens when I want back home but I assumed it was a random knob-head. The Punjabi guys I've met who've come over to the West are actually quite decent and respectful. I guess when they're on their home turf they're a little more honest, lol.

[Ranjeet01]

48 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

There's a growing movement in the Western black community that is getting to grips with some of the things you've described above. It's very interesting to see how the guys feel they're being thrown under the bus by their women who've adopted destructive "foreign" ideologies () that have made them hostile to their own bandeh and their overall long-term prospects as a race. 

These guys are unique in as much as they're clearly beginning to say, "The white progressive is NOT our ally. The racist is what he is, but their counterparts are in some ways more destructive for us. These progressive whites are introducing practices to our people that will kill us through so-called love." These guys aren't even religious but they're totally speaking out against the destructive influences of the gangsta image, the black predilection for being drawn to rap music and sports, etc. The response from young black teens listening to these guys is like they're being told something from another galaxy; they're receptive to it, but it's all totally new to these youngsters, and they seem to be taking it in. 

We will never have this, because our "preaching" comes with religious conditions from the get-go. The best way I can describe it is trying to impose the square root of pi on a person when all they asked is for the answer to 2+2. The reality is that folks aren't receptive to faith and religion. They want to be spoken to like a person on a direct basis not sermonised to with concepts they will always struggle to understand. If we aren't there to help people in our community who are in a difficult head space, they will leave us. That doesn't mean they're bad or scum; it just means they're lost.

It is said that there are shades of grey and no black and white.

But the reality is that there are things that are black and white.

Some people need certainties and concrete things in life. It makes life simpler. 

Why make things more complex than they have to be.

[puzzled]

1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

My extended family has a mix of unreligious and religious. They are a mix of moneh, Keshdharis and Amritdharis .From very traditional to the extremely westernised.

So I guess I see a wide range of behaviours

Its interesting but theres a lot of contradictory behaviours in the same families.

I have relatives who are where the women have to stay in line, not mess around, while the guys themselves turn up home at midnight, drunk. These families weirdly still believe in things like izat, sharam. Etc  they tend to be very punjabified. 

Then I have relatives who are very Westernized. Men/women do as they please, and face no consequences. There is no concept of izat, sharam, honour.

Then the 3rd group are really quite, well behaved, men either drink moderately or don't drink. Women are graceful, well educated successful kids. Traditional, though kids end up leaning towards becoming coconuts. 

I personally get on the most with the 1st group. 

Families often contradict. 

But then again everyone contradicts. 

[Redoptics]

People love to throw stones at glass house's, very impressive.

[Jai Tegang!]

@californiasardar

If the vast majority of a group ( like monay) is made to feel lacking and second grade, how will this impact their long term loyalty? Will this not leave them open to easy picking from pretty much every other group out there? Be pragmatic in this sense.

I think we need to create a more connected accountable identity for the largest demographic of our panth, the monay/sehajdharis. We have allowed a perception to exist where a person is either expected to adhere to every single rule in the case of Amritdhari, or they have full freedom to do anything they want. Way too much space between these to states. We have to normalize reading Japji sahib, or atleast 5-10 min of Moolmantar, as a normal routine for ALL types of sikhs. Not tied to what we eat, drink, or do. A Sunday Rehraas at the Gurdwara or some other communal reading of Bani needs to become a norm for ALL Sikhs. Instead of pushing the Sikhi saroop, we need to push the foundational elements that enable it to exist.

[AcceptWill201]

2 hours ago, Jai Tegang! said:

@californiasardar

If the vast majority of a group ( like monay) is made to feel lacking and second grade, how will this impact their long term loyalty? Will this not leave them open to easy picking from pretty much every other group out there? Be pragmatic in this sense.

I think we need to create a more connected accountable identity for the largest demographic of our panth, the monay/sehajdharis. We have allowed a perception to exist where a person is either expected to adhere to every single rule in the case of Amritdhari, or they have full freedom to do anything they want. Way too much space between these to states. We have to normalize reading Japji sahib, or atleast 5-10 min of Moolmantar, as a normal routine for ALL types of sikhs. Not tied to what we eat, drink, or do. A Sunday Rehraas at the Gurdwara or some other communal reading of Bani needs to become a norm for ALL Sikhs. Instead of pushing the Sikhi saroop, we need to push the foundational elements that enable it to exist.

Agreed.

It's not black and white, theres a journey every soul is on. Some slip back others progresses and a few trips and falls along the way. Some progress  internally in the sense they start reading paath and this brings them closer to eventually accepting the kakkars etc. Theres so many variations, it's just not right to criticise monay.

Saints like Sant Jarnail Singh have the kamayie to address sangat in many ways. It doesn't mean if they were harsh/straight to the point in a speech then that gives full rule for Gursikhs to be harsh to others. We cant copy the saints. They are entirely different  and sometimes out of love it can be harsh. But normal ppl cant do what Santji could do. Also time, place, emotion  all need to be assessed. Generally  I think love , respect, and lead by example works. Non of this katar puna , holier than tho crap.

Having observed close family and my own experience from mona to amrtidhari journey. The family didn't go Gurdwara at all for years. Then maybe just the odd wedding , but usually straight to the party hall, and were prob very far removed from Dharam or believing  in  God. The family may have mocked ppl out of ignorance. But there was no hate,   there was stil respect of Sikhi.

I recall we started going once every couple months, it was like a quick one ten min before the Akhand Paath bhog. Pick up a ramal from the box do a quick maths tek, get prashad and off we went. No learning, no engaging.  However i remember alot of monay did alot of seva and were really involved and engaged with Singhs in full stoop. There was alot of pyaar and I think this is was what caught my attention  back in those days.

 Then we became sunday sikhs, the highlight was prob the fact when an uncle bought a ramal, and it was his ramal for sundays. I think we had big egos and were so manmati that who knows if someone  had said something critical it would of hurt the ego and we may of went on a different path. 

But it was Gurus grace. Slowly some of the family started doing a bit of seva. It became a bit of a thing. Then reading some paath. I remember some Singhs always  greeting  with such Chardikala....there were some who didn't seem to welcoming. But I think we were oblivious to alot of how ppl were.

All I know that the love and some conversations I had paved my way to sikhi. Once an amrtidhari  uncle told me sakhis of Bhai Mani Singh and BhaiTaru Singh and how important  sikhi was. The sakhis really hit home and for years the words echoed in my mind this created change. There were events at uni and all this shaped the way. It was a period of 15 years to get to now. I still have a large circle  of family  who are monay, some do alot of paath. Some alot of seva. All are at different stages. Some are really clued up and just havent taken the step in terms of saroop or other thigns. After all it's a game of the mind, that's why we came to this earth to work it out and find our way home. 

As an amrtidhari  now I find it difficult that ppl can be so judgemental on monay. If ppl just clicked and followed then it wouldn't be kaljug. Theres alot of ppl insaroop who dont carry the practice. So end of day embracing and welcoming should be the base point and like the post above we should encourage  sangat.