Equality during Anand Karaj

[Guest manjeetayjagjeet]

Sat sri akal, everyone!

I'm just having some trouble wrapping my head around Sikh society. As a woman, I am proud to be Sikh because it advocates for equality among the genders. However, my faith has been suffering due to societal thinking, especially here in Canada. My fiancé and I are getting married next year and we are having a lot of trouble finding a raagi jattha. Why? Because both of us (and our families) want us to walk beside each other instead of the traditional bride behind groom way for the lavaan. People are simply unwilling to do it and those that can, are crazy expensive.

Our traditions have been heavily borrowed from Hinduism but without all the fuss. We have even changed the way we think about Sikh marriage, as the bride and groom get married together to God. So then why do I have to walk behind him? To make things worse, I have heard some really sexist things from some of the raagis who explained why I must walk behind him. I am so disappointed in our people.

I guess I wanted some more opinions on this. Am I missing some pertinent information? But if anyone has more information about this or raagis who are more open minded, I'd love to hear about it!

Thank you!

[MisterrSingh]

On 2/24/2021 at 5:24 PM, Guest manjeetayjagjeet said:

People are simply unwilling to do it and those that can, are crazy expensive.

So there are individuals willing to conduct such a ceremony, but you don't want to pay their rates? Do you not feel the actual religious or spiritual method by which you are enjoined to your partner is worth the financial outlay? So, the problem isn't "Sikh society" but your frugality, because if the issue truly lay with these backwards Sikhs, you'd be unable to find even one individual willing to conduct whatever abominable concoction of religiosity you deem to be en vogue in the current year.

As for the rights and wrongs of the ceremony itself I guess it's a matter of tradition. If the ceremony itself is deemed to be so objectionable, I'd find another spiritual framework to latch onto for your wedding aesthetic. If I was in your position and so certain of my convictions, I would reject the Anand Karaj on principle, and instead conduct a secular ceremony more suited to my beliefs and tastes. That's what someone of principle would do.

 

[intrigued]

On 2/24/2021 at 12:24 PM, Guest manjeetayjagjeet said:

Because both of us (and our families) want us to walk beside each other instead of the traditional bride behind groom way for the lavaan.

Quote

The Sikh Anand Karaj is a religious ceremony.  It signifies a union between two souls.  There are several places in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that refer to a wedding – but they mostly refer to it as a spiritual union.  The human soul (the atma) is the metaphorical bride seeking union with her husband (who is the Parmatama – oversoul.)  The Laavan (wedding hymn) refers to four stages of spiritual evolution as the souls unite.  There is to be no differentiation here of the status of the bride, and she is to be treated as an equal.  We have seen weddings where the bride wore the “bana” and carried a Kirpan, just as the groom did.

There is no discriminatory practice here, as in Gurbani we as an individual are represented as a bride. A lot of today's society is seeing discrimination in places where there isn't. Please try and adhere to the traditional way of Anand Karaj. 

No one calls discrimination when the bride comes after the groom in christian marriages - it is a metaphor as well

In the past, one had to take Amrit to even have an Anand Karaj - http://dailysikhupdates.com/gursikhs-anand-karaj-1900-says-elderly-grandmother/

[Ranjeet01]

We are Sikhs not Cultural Marxists.

If you have it the traditional you are both equally distant from Maharaj. If you have both people level then one is going to be further away.

You adapt to Sikhi, Sikhi should not have to adapt to your whimsical ways.

If you want a western ceremony,  I suggest you have a registry marriage.

Simples

 

[puzzled]

You're marrying the love of your life (supposedly), and you're more worried about whether if you're walking behind, beside or in front of him. Rather than booking the nearest wedding date available in great anticipation, to get married to person you love, you're delaying the process because of your insecurities.

I suggest you go back to basics and ask yourself, what does this person mean to you? why are you marrying him? and why Anand Karaj? and what is your priority in this relationship?

Its not too late to reconsider, modern Sikh marriages suggest that marriage isn't for everyone. 

 

As for why the bride walks behind the groom, then that is because your father will pass your husbands pala into your hands. This symbolises that your father is now passing you onto your husband and that you are now a part of your husbands family. The grooms father does not pass the brides chunni into the grooms hand, it is the brides father that passes the grooms pala into his daughters hand.  Your sons will also be a part of your husbands family and take their fathers name. 

Just how Guru Gobind Singh ji narrates the history of his family, the Sodhi clan, the clan of his father Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji.  Just how Guru Nanak Dev ji is described as being born into the Bedi clan, the clan of his father Mehta Kalu. Just how Bhai Santokh Singh ji describes that when Guru Nanak Dev ji is born the BEDI ladies(aunts) come around to see Baby Guru Nanak. 

Guru Gobind Singh ji's hukkam is that a Sikh man should get his daughter married into a house where Sikhi is practiced, why ? because its the bride that is marrying into the grooms family, hence a father should choose a home for his daughter where Sikhi is practiced.  

Just like that the father of the bride passes the grooms pala into the brides hand, symbolising that she is now a part of the grooms family and their kids will also be part of the grooms family. We have been getting married like that for centuries, its our tradition. If you don't like it, then like others have suggested you can have a registry marriage. 

 

@jkvlondon  would you like to give this bibi some advise? 

 

[Guest Runner]

Some advice for your husband:

do a runner

[MisterrSingh]

I really am making a conscious effort to adjust my frame of mind so that I'm not viewing reality from a purely masculine and patriarchal perspective, but reading 5hit like this hammers home the absolute futility of it all. 

We know what she's going to come back with: "Sikhi is outdated / sexist / patriarchal / anti-female" and we're all pendu b**tards who wants to ruin her special day.

[Ranjeet01]

36 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I really am making a conscious effort to adjust my frame of mind so that I'm not viewing reality from a purely masculine and patriarchal perspective, but reading 5hit like this hammers home the absolute futility of it all. 

We know what she's going to come back with: "Sikhi is outdated / sexist / patriarchal / anti-female" and we're all pendu b**tards who wants to ruin her special day.

Pendu b**stards

[jkvlondon]

On 2/24/2021 at 5:24 PM, Guest manjeetayjagjeet said:

Sat sri akal, everyone!

I'm just having some trouble wrapping my head around Sikh society. As a woman, I am proud to be Sikh because it advocates for equality among the genders. However, my faith has been suffering due to societal thinking, especially here in Canada. My fiancé and I are getting married next year and we are having a lot of trouble finding a raagi jattha. Why? Because both of us (and our families) want us to walk beside each other instead of the traditional bride behind groom way for the lavaan. People are simply unwilling to do it and those that can, are crazy expensive.

Our traditions have been heavily borrowed from Hinduism but without all the fuss. We have even changed the way we think about Sikh marriage, as the bride and groom get married together to God. So then why do I have to walk behind him? To make things worse, I have heard some really sexist things from some of the raagis who explained why I must walk behind him. I am so disappointed in our people.

I guess I wanted some more opinions on this. Am I missing some pertinent information? But if anyone has more information about this or raagis who are more open minded, I'd love to hear about it!

Thank you!

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa , Waheguru ji ki Fateh ,

firstly what you are doing is throwing out sikh culture and gurmat for some supposed 'modern' and WISER ???? way , in some mistaken impression you know what Guru ji meant better than he did.

If you are happy and grateful for being a sikh on the long line of sacrificing sikhs upon whose bodies you stand  then it should not be US the descendents, telling the GURU that 'we know better than you' and altering his given ways to bless you both as a Couple.

If you look at the history of the Lavaan it has ZERO to do with Vedic resams  as we are dedicating ourselves to Guru ji and making Guru ji our support and centre of our lives (that is why we travel around giving respect, equidistant to the Guru , neither partner becoming a blockage to personal relationship to Guru ji) .
If your guy is walking ahead of you it is showing that he will protect and shield you from the unknown harms that could come your way in life as Guru ji has told him to do, so actually it is giving him space to show how much he cares and honours you in sharing your life with him . It is not saying you are lesser in any way so please stop listening to frankly uneducated 'modern' sikhs , as Kaurs are supposed to be supportive and ready step into the breach if life takes out the Singh and protect the future of the panth. 

The First Anand Karaj  was when Guru Amar Das ji Married his own Daughter Bibi Bhani ji to Guru Ram Das ji , did he insist that his daughter walk in front or side by side  to Guru Ram Das Ji ? No , he could have done knowing just how blessed and holy she was , daughter to a Guru, Wife of a Guru, Mother of a Guru and GRandmother of the Next Guru also .  Was she treated as lesser by anyone ? No , so please leave western ideas of 'equality'  and understand Sikh ideas of equality they are much deeper and more expressive  then simple minded kneejerk swaps as in western thinking. Yes you are right societal thinking has got you in a tizz but it is not Sikhi but your interpretations of it via the messed up western model which fails to see beauty in the chivalry of promising to protect but sees it as a belittling of the female (how messed up is that? so daughters shouldn't look up to their dads and brothers if they look after them but should be angry) .

Guru ji commanded that his sikhs should never ask for daaj or harass the girl's family with demands  if they did they are not his sikhs. The bharat was only supposed to be as big as the female's family could host without stressing them . A Sikh was never allowed to cuss out or strike women did this mean Guru ji thought of women as weak flower or was it he wanted society to change their attitude and show just as much love and respect to the girl's family as the boy's family got ? This is the equality he wanted that daughters were married into homes with these attitudes intact not the transactional attitudes  that existed in societies dominated by the other faiths. Unfortunately, in your speech I have seen that crass transactional attitude with regards to the raagis , if you are serious about sikhi and doing your life the sikh way , cultivate humbleness because you are begging Guru ji to bless your future together and his Granthi and sewaks will follow Him not you . If you don't want to pay for a particular jathebandi then just get the gurdwara sewak team to do it and donate the difference to the homeless or poor.

Raagi jathe following Akal Takht maryada and Guru ji's hukham so do not expect them to answer yes to your folks strange ideas because those ideas are insulting the maryada of Anand Karaj and Guru ji Themself. They know the sikh follows the Guru not the other way around .

[Guest Rus]

Fun fact. In Russian, the verb to marry literally means "take a wife" if you're male. But if you're female it literally means "be behind the man" 

Shortly after the US got rid of the Taliban, an aid worker noticed a woman walking behind her husband. 

"We've freed you from the control of men" the aid worker said. "Why are you still walking behind him?" 

"Landmines" the woman replied. 

 

Seriously though, it's not all tradition. It depends on lots of things. i've heard in the old days that women would walk first in the third lavan. My own grand parents sat on chairs. Apparently in really old times they didn't eve. Walk around.