Kirpan holster, is the gatra necessary

[Jai Tegang!]

There are always modifications and adjustments in good faith that occur with time to our way of practicing. For example, kashera sizes have varied due to pants. People still might wear the larger kasheras with pants, or may not, depending on their comfort level.  The intention and core purpose of Guru Maharaj’s hukams needs to be understood.

For many of us it can be hard to say anything that sounds remotely challenging to our practiced ways because we don’t want to create another point of discord. If the Guru stated it, we should follow. I agree. Lets also analyse their intentions behind those hukams.

Another example is our current kirpans. The original size was meant to be full length, hence the need for a gatra to provide stability. We slowly over time reduced the size to small 6”, 9”, or 12” ( some say this was the result of British out-lawing the full length 3 ft). We have small kirpans, in the shape of large ones, but still on a gatra.  Whereas I believe smaller weapons were stuffed into the waistband in puratan times. Also, the smaller kirpans are not designed as straight thrusting knives, and neither can they be effective as a full length sword, but no one really bothers to consider this. Would Guru Sahib want us to have the most effective and efficient blade, or would they insist on copying the shape of a full shamshir sword? If you see old shashters of Maharaj, you will find khanjars that are straight and narrow blades.

To the original poster, I would say brother it can be difficult for most sikhs to outrightly say certain things because we don’t wish to even appear to trespass on Guru Ji’s Authority on what they wanted for us. We trust our elders with their decisions regarding Guru Rehit. But I feel there is room for discussion and deepening our understanding. If done in good faith, I feel Guru Pita would continue to bless us with wisdom to face challenges in our dynamic world. These challenges are only going to increase.

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

3 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

Ever since the rise of adjustable Gatras about a decade ago people are increasingly wearing their Gatras like belts instead of over their shoulders. I guess it was just a matter of time before Sikhs today would do away with the Gatra altogether and wear their kirpans in a belt. I know in some places like Taksal they do not let you take Amrit with an adjustable Gatra. 

It all comes down to puratan tradition, ਪਰਮਪਰਾ. We can do innovations all we like, like wearing stainless steel kirpans/karas instead of Sarbloh ones, wearing adjustable Gatras, belts instead of traditional Gatras. Or wearing a Patka instead of Dastar.

We have made many changes in our lives but I feel Kakkars should be left the way they are. Surely our lives are not more difficult than the lives of Puratan Sikhs who held on to the traditions of the Gurus.

Maintaining the tradition of the Kakkars is a form of Bhagti in itself. It is a Shingaar the soul bride maintains for their Guru because the Guru had established it. What is pleasing to the Guru matters more than any minor inconvenience.

I believe singhs in the past wore kirpans in kamarkasa like nihangs 

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

10 minutes ago, Jai Tegang! said:

There are always modifications and adjustments in good faith that occur with time to our way of practicing. For example, kashera sizes have varied due to pants. People still might wear the larger kasheras with pants, or may not, depending on their comfort level.  The intention and core purpose of Guru Maharaj’s hukams needs to be understood.

For many of us it can be hard to say anything that sounds remotely challenging to our practiced ways because we don’t want to create another point of discord. If the Guru stated it, we should follow. I agree. Lets also analyse their intentions behind those hukams.

Another example is our current kirpans. The original size was meant to be full length, hence the need for a gatra to provide stability. We slowly over time reduced the size to small 6”, 9”, or 12” ( some say this was the result of British out-lawing the full length 3 ft). We have small kirpans, in the shape of large ones, but still on a gatra.  Whereas I believe smaller weapons were stuffed into the waistband in puratan times. Also, the smaller kirpans are not designed as straight thrusting knives, and neither can they be effective as a full length sword, but no one really bothers to consider this. Would Guru Sahib want us to have the most effective and efficient blade, or would they insist on copying the shape of a full shamshir sword? If you see old shashters of Maharaj, you will find khanjars that are straight and narrow blades.

To the original poster, I would say brother it can be difficult for most sikhs to outrightly say certain things because we don’t wish to even appear to trespass on Guru Ji’s Authority on what they wanted for us. We trust our elders with their decisions regarding Guru Rehit. But I feel there is room for discussion and deepening our understanding. If done in good faith, I feel Guru Pita would continue to bless us with wisdom to face challenges in our dynamic world. These challenges are only going to increase.

My kirpan is 14 inches .... but there's an attachment for the belt where I can secure it so that its always with me at work. Tyar bar tyar and not in my dastaar. 

However when I go home I wear the gatra. 

Only work its in my sheath.

Thanks for your input

I really appreciate you 

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

34 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Gatras were always around back then. If one looks at the early pictures of nihangs from the late 1800s or even earlier sketches/drawings Gatras are always part of the Sikh attire. Another method was that many Puratan Sikhs used thin rope Gatras to support their Kakkar Kirpan. The Kakkar Kirpans of Puratan Singhs are still around. That's is how Singhs did ishnan by tying their kirpans around their dastars since a Kakkar cannot be separated from the body.

Using a belt for holding a Kirpan is basically because we no longer wear Banas. We have become Pant wearers for which a belt is used.

Thanks for your input ji 

Waheguru 

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

3 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

Ever since the rise of adjustable Gatras about a decade ago people are increasingly wearing their Gatras like belts instead of over their shoulders. I guess it was just a matter of time before Sikhs today would do away with the Gatra altogether and wear their kirpans in a belt. I know in some places like Taksal they do not let you take Amrit with an adjustable Gatra. 

It all comes down to puratan tradition, ਪਰਮਪਰਾ. We can do innovations all we like, like wearing stainless steel kirpans/karas instead of Sarbloh ones, wearing adjustable Gatras, belts instead of traditional Gatras. Or wearing a Patka instead of Dastar.

We have made many changes in our lives but I feel Kakkars should be left the way they are. Surely our lives are not more difficult than the lives of Puratan Sikhs who held on to the traditions of the Gurus.

Maintaining the tradition of the Kakkars is a form of Bhagti in itself. It is a Shingaar the soul bride maintains for their Guru because the Guru had established it. What is pleasing to the Guru matters more than any minor inconvenience.

Thanks for the input ji 

Waheguru 

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

36 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Gatras were always around back then. If one looks at the early pictures of nihangs from the late 1800s or even earlier sketches/drawings Gatras are always part of the Sikh attire. Another method was that many Puratan Sikhs used thin rope Gatras to support their Kakkar Kirpan. The Kakkar Kirpans of Puratan Singhs are still around. That's is how Singhs did ishnan by tying their kirpans around their dastars since a Kakkar cannot be separated from the body.

Using a belt for holding a Kirpan is basically because we no longer wear Banas. We have become Pant wearers for which a belt is used.

Yes I understand what you are saying

 But I don't think I can wear a bana at work site.

Back in the days singhs in the past didn't wear safety boots either.

So how can I give up safety boots and pants....

Bro Im Working kirat Karni..

I dont have to wear a construction hat...so I'm happy about that. 

Maybe one day these construction sites will let us wear a bana to work too

So we can lose the pants 

I dunno

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

1 hour ago, AcceptWill201 said:

Interesting to hear your views Singho.

I recall the panj Piyare specifically  stress the requirement for a kirpan on a gatra to be worn at all times ('gatray wali kirpan') and could not be on a dori or worn as a necklace etc, and not to be kept in kesh. They did say wearing additional shashters to this was fine. 

I think this had stuck in my mind as in the lead up to Amrit, due to work and wearing a kirpan under a shirt I started off with a gatra worn as normal under shirt but it would stick out. Then id put the gatra around both shoulders so the kirpan would neatly tuck under the arm , then I was looking for other holsters etc so I could wear something bigger but keep it concealed, like wear at belt level and it had crossed my mind too whether gatra was required at all. So was interesting the Panj said that when I took Amrit. Otherwise I may have swayed a diff way personally.

 

I agree perhaps back in the day shaster were traditionally in a kamar kassa, but actually it may not have been unusual for there to have been a gatra of some sort/form, as practically if you want to keep a large shaster on your person and travel, say on horse back or doing seva, then a gatra would have also been useful to hold a long kirpan across the body as it may be awkward in a kammar kassa in certain  positions. So may have been a combination of ways to carry weapons. Even both ways, on a gatra and tucked in a kammar kassa.

Ultimately the gatra ensures the kirpan stays on your person at all times.

 

Below is a quote from the taksaal marayada.

"3.10.4. Kirpan – Sword of Mercy

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਣ ਪਾਣ ਧਾਰੀਯੰ ॥ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਾਪ ਟਾਰੀਯੰ ॥

"The mark of a Khalsa is one who holds a Kirpan in hand,

by the wearing of which millions of sins are abolished."

Sri Dasam Granth Ang 42

The Kirpan is there to protect the poor and for self-defence. With patience and mercy, the Kirpan is to be used as a sword to destroy oppression. The Kirpan is to always be in a gatra and never to be removed from the body. The Kirpan protects us from hidden and seen enemies.  The Kirpan is a weapon to protect the whole body, as a minimum it should be nine inches in length.  Keeping the Kirpan in a Kangha, in the Kesh and putting it on a string around the neck like a Janeoo, are against the Rehat and forbidden.

ਸ਼ਸਤਰ ਹੀਨ ਕਬਹੂ ਨਹਿ ਹੋਈ, ਰਹਿਤਵੰਤ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਸੋਈ ॥

"Those who never depart his/her arms, they are the Khalsa with excellent conduct."

Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh Jee, p.148

You are never to walk over your Kirpan or other weapons. When washing your Kesh, the Kangha is to be tied to your Kirpan and the Kirpan tied around your waist. When bathing, your Kirpan is to be tied around your head and not tucked into the Kashara as this dishonours your Kirpan. When women bathe they are to tie their dupata on their head and then their Kirpan.

When going to sleep your Kirpan is not to be removed from your body.

The Kirpan is only to be used for two things. Firstly, to give Guru Jee’s blessing to freshly prepared Karah Prasad or for langar. Secondly, in order to destroy tyrants and oppressors. It must never be used for anything else.

If the Kangha, Kara or Kirpan are separated from your body, you are forbidden to eat or drink until they are replaced. Upon the replacement of your missing Kakkar, Japjee Sahib is to be recited and an Ardas must be performed for the seperation and to beg for forgiveness. The Ardas may be performed either in a Gurdwara or the place where you are replacing your Kakkar. Having done this, you may eat and drink."

Thanks brother. I dont have the taksaali maryada. But some singhs I know do. 

Thanks for your input ji 

 

[GurjantGnostic]

1 hour ago, Singhkhalsa19842020 said:

Yes I understand what you are saying

 But I don't think I can wear a bana at work site.

Back in the days singhs in the past didn't wear safety boots either.

So how can I give up safety boots and pants....

Bro Im Working kirat Karni..

I dont have to wear a construction hat...so I'm happy about that. 

Maybe one day these construction sites will let us wear a bana to work too

So we can lose the pants 

I dunno

Could offer to tie a bump camp insert into your Dastar if they ever trip. 

[Singhkhalsa19842020]

10 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

Ever since the rise of adjustable Gatras about a decade ago people are increasingly wearing their Gatras like belts instead of over their shoulders. I guess it was just a matter of time before Sikhs today would do away with the Gatra altogether and wear their kirpans in a belt. I know in some places like Taksal they do not let you take Amrit with an adjustable Gatra. 

It all comes down to puratan tradition, ਪਰਮਪਰਾ. We can do innovations all we like, like wearing stainless steel kirpans/karas instead of Sarbloh ones, wearing adjustable Gatras, belts instead of traditional Gatras. Or wearing a Patka instead of Dastar.

We have made many changes in our lives but I feel Kakkars should be left the way they are. Surely our lives are not more difficult than the lives of Puratan Sikhs who held on to the traditions of the Gurus.

Maintaining the tradition of the Kakkars is a form of Bhagti in itself. It is a Shingaar the soul bride maintains for their Guru because the Guru had established it. What is pleasing to the Guru matters more than any minor inconvenience.

Brother. Its for work. I had to make changes to my life because I work in construction. I can't wear a bana, I have to wear pants, I have to wear safety boots. They won't let me in the site. I'm sure Guru ji would understand. What do you think ? 

BTW I do NOT wear a safety hat. Just my dumalla. 

Maybe I'll do the kamarkasa. Instead of the belt if thats any better. 

I have a long 14 inch kirpan 

I know what puratan singhs did. But at a construction site some of that attire is not allowed. You must know this. 

I think pleasing to my Guru is kirat karni. And still keeping my nitnem and having all my kakkars doing seva and naam. Whether kirpan is in a kamarkasa or in a sheath on my belt. 

Obviously when im outside work...I always wear gatra kirpan. For example...in the shower, in bed ...like all the time. 

I agree patka is not khalsa. I only asked about the gatra. 

As for Sarbloh. My Kara is Sarbloh. My kirpan is too. Thats maryada I know. 

Just wanna point out, we have come along way, and their is stronger better innovative swords and knifes, being made now. If one is truly to have the best shasters I think uts good to carry these as well. Like Cold steel. Serrated

 

Thanks for input ji 

[jassa]

I dont know why punj peyare told you not to keep kirpan in your hair. Infact the only shaster recovered from the angitha of dasam pita was his kirpan which he kept in his hair. Go to youtube search for shaster darshan hazoor sahib.

Secondly the current form of kirpan/gatra was just a century old. When british annexed punjab they banned all types of public weapons including kirpans and after few years this ban was lifted and later hukamnama was issued from the Akal takth sahib about the size of kirpan hence the modern kirpans came into being and gatra was adjusted accordingly. Before this only 3 feet kirpans were kept in gatras small shasters like todays kirpan also known as khanjar or kard were kept in kamarkassa.