Baron Charles Hugel on Maharaja and his kingdom

[Suchi]

1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Interesting, judging by the uniform description I think he is talking about the infantry.   Plus, lots of 'domains' had already been taken by Singhs before the Europeanisation of parts of the army, plus even then, we know that nihungs (who were averse to the European style training) swung many battles with their traditional style of warfare in the tougher border regions with Afghanistan. 

Also note how Lahore seems to have been a manufacturing hub at the time, not only making guns but canons too. Plus I would imagine that the 'muskets' he is talking about could have equally been fashioned after French or Italian models given that there were people from this background in influential positions in Lahore. I think some of them were overseeing the foundries making taups? 

You can see with this example that they had achieved a high level of expertise in this by this time. Post 'annexation' I think this was another indigenous industry that the brits destroyed. 

This contemporary image shows captured Sikh canons. As we can see, there were a lot of them:

 

@shastarSingh Loving your threads bro!!!

Looks like British cavalry in the background on horseback wearing white helmets. Any idea about this?

[shastarSingh]

1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Look at the craftsmanship of the details  on this Sikh musket:

Amazing!!! No words

Thanks for sharing

[dallysingh101]

You know in another thread not long ago, someone asked me about the european sources and I explained that I believe Sikhs need to carefully analyse these as they had various propagandist assumptions embedded within. Like look at Hugel's quotes about the muskets being of 'english fashion' when this is blatantly not true, with muskets following various styles including Persian. Also the oft-repeated statement of the times that Sikhs were only formidable to the brits forces and managed to kill them in large numbers due to their 'European training' is another one. It's not like they hadn't pulled off grand military achievements prior to this.  That's why you need your brains switched on when you read them. 

[dallysingh101]

2 hours ago, Suchi said:

Looks like British cavalry in the background on horseback wearing white helmets. Any idea about this?

I think these are the 14th Light Dragoons and this is the battle of Ramnuggar. 

Normally images show them wearing black hats though, not white ones like above. Trousers seem different too. Maybe the different colour stripes indicate different units within?  I'm no expert though. 

 

 

[shastarSingh]

5 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Interesting, judging by the uniform description I think he is talking about the infantry.   Plus, lots of 'domains' had already been taken by Singhs before the Europeanisation of parts of the army, plus even then, we know that nihungs (who were averse to the European style training) swung many battles with their traditional style of warfare in the tougher border regions with Afghanistan. 

Also note how Lahore seems to have been a manufacturing hub at the time, not only making guns but canons too. Plus I would imagine that the 'muskets' he is talking about could have equally been fashioned after French or Italian models given that there were people from this background in influential positions in Lahore. I think some of them were overseeing the foundries making taups? 

You can see with this example that they had achieved a high level of expertise in this by this time. Post 'annexation' I think this was another indigenous industry that the brits destroyed. 

This contemporary image shows captured Sikh canons. As we can see, there were a lot of them:

 

@shastarSingh Loving your threads bro!!!

The reason we see sikh soldiery wearing red jackets and other stuff is due to the below:

H.L.O Garrett in 1935 wrote 'The Punjab a Hundred Years Ago' in which he edited and translated the works of  V.Jacquemont (1831) & A. Soltykoff (1842). 

Jacquemont observed that “Sikh 
cavalry clothed and armed in a uniform that was half French and half Sikh”

Fauja Singh wrote 'military system of the sikhs' in 1964. He writes:

Maharaja Ranjit Singh borrowed from the British not only the idea but also the pattern of their uniform, with a few adjustments necessitated by his circumstances.

[dallysingh101]

49 minutes ago, shastarSingh said:

The reason we see sikh soldiery wearing red jackets and other stuff is due to the below:

H.L.O Garrett in 1935 wrote 'The Punjab a Hundred Years Ago' in which he edited and translated the works of  V.Jacquemont (1831) & A. Soltykoff (1842). 

Jacquemont observed that “Sikh 
cavalry clothed and armed in a uniform that was half French and half Sikh”

Fauja Singh wrote 'military system of the sikhs' in 1964. He writes:

Maharaja Ranjit Singh borrowed from the British not only the idea but also the pattern of their uniform, with a few adjustments necessitated by his circumstances.

I think Jacquemont would be more accurate than Fauja Singh due to being a contemporary witness, as well as being French, he'd know what the French military uniforms would look like. Fauja Singh wrote well over a hundred years after.  Plus the Napoleonic generals hired by Ranjit Singh are unlikely to have chosen a uniform from their traditional enemies to cloth their soldiers?

Here's the full statement by him:

On March 2nd I left Ludhiana and crossed the Sutlej. I rode on an elephant and was escorted by some Sikh troopers from Ludhiana. My elephant was ferried across on a very small boat and my escort crossed in similar ones. On reaching the right bank I was received by military honours by a troop of cavalry, clothed and armed in a uniform half French half Sikh. What struck me most about them was that the words of command were given in French. These men belonged to Allard's own corps. 

Remember the Sikh uniforms differed themselves, the people in charge of canons (artillery) wore blue jackets not red (as well as bearskins apparently), see below:

[dallysingh101]

Here's some other contemporary images of Sikh artillery men in their blue uniforms:

 

Notice how the above also shows Sikh infantry men sniping from the trees. 

 

[shastarSingh]

Veerji why did sikh soldiery started wearing red jackets in ur opinion?

[dallysingh101]

16 minutes ago, shastarSingh said:

Veerji why did sikh soldiery started wearing red jackets in ur opinion?

Bhai ji, it's not remotely complicated in my opinion:

When M. Ranjit Singh hired those Napoleonic generals to train up soldiers, they simply incorporated elements of the European military uniforms they were used to. Also I think, to European minds, detailed standarisation of uniforms inbetween members of the same units fosters fraternity or at least a common identity. King of kings dasmesh pita, also did this to a degree with the blue uniforms and kasheras and panj hathiars i.e. a distinct uniform, but without the minute standardisation of details of  European uniforms. 

Like has been illustrated above, it wasn't just red jackets, but blue also (and maybe even more variations?) 

[dallysingh101]

@shastarSingh

Regarding: "Veerji why did sikh soldiery started wearing red jackets in ur opinion?"

Veer ji, look at this image that shows the campaign uniforms of Napoleonic artillery men, and note the stark similarities with the Sikh artillery men's uniforms. This is how the uniforms were chosen I believe. The Napoleonic general's tried to mimic the uniforms of the armies they fought with before, but what happened was a sort of fusion between the French styles and desi style, hence Jacquemont's comment. With infantry men, we have it on record that Sikhs were originally averse to becoming foot soldiers at first (their Khalsa ancestors traditionally being mounted soldiers), and had to be enticed into it through rewards. But when that division of the army grew, it grew to a large size. 

 

 

Plus this precolonial painting shows that at least some mounted Sikh soldiers were wearing red before the british came anyway: