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16 minutes ago, Premi5 said:

I didn't mean anything morally bad, just other things

Some a little politically incorrect maybe. I mean, my Mum's side considered themselves more handsome, fairer skin, generally better educated, more land. That's what I meant. 

So, the normal, predictable stuff that our people are obsessed with.

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21 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Bro, there are chariters that describe EXCATLY this going on in the pind. It isn't all about the upper echelons. 

Go to SA and trawl through the threads on individual chariters from CP from about chariter 90 onwards and see for yourself.   

It can't have been tolerated and the perpetrators treated as if it was no big deal. There must've been reprisals or punishments.

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24 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

It can't have been tolerated and the perpetrators treated as if it was no big deal. There must've been reprisals or punishments.

Read for yourself. There are a few chariters that cover the rural scene. What I find fascinating about most of these is that they are nested within other chariters that have a heavy dose of mythology interweaved within, whereas these ones don't - they are conspicuously grounded in reality. It's like they reflect ground realities as opposed to the 'creative' ones? And I know how sensitive some of you are about your beloved caste, but you can easily identify these chariters because they explicitly have jut or jutti mentioned in the narratives. I think these ones reflect scenarios from villages. Yeah, some people when caught are likely to have been punished (like in the Mirza Sahibaan narratives), but we as a people aren't immune to having cuckolds, and some people are devious enough to get away with their deceptions long term.  Remember it wasn't all clean; people 'bought' wives from poorer families back then, polyandry was practiced. Pends might not be the pristine, pure places people imagine. Romantic stories of elicit meetings like Heer Ranjha, Sohni Mehiwal permeated village consciousness. Don't be like a gora imagining the England that never was. 

When you finished reading those chariters, find Grewal and Habib's Persians Sources of Sikh of Sikh History (it's online and free!), and read the translation  of Dabistan which goes back even further. 

Like I said, human nature is human nature. We haven't changed that much from our ancestors of a few centuries ago.  

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1 hour ago, Premi5 said:

Some a little politically incorrect maybe. I mean, my Mum's side considered themselves more handsome, fairer skin, generally better educated, more land. That's what I meant. 

Did they marry into your dad's side because it was a ticket out to vilayat? 

That's another reason there were discrepancies between couples. People would marry their daughters to blokes who were pukkay in the diaspora, despite obvious mismatches in looks and wealth.

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6 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Did they marry into your dad's side because it was a ticket out to vilayat? 

That's another reason there were discrepancies between couples. People would marry their daughters to blokes who were pukkay in the diaspora, despite obvious mismatches in looks and wealth.

My Dad was already in England, yes. Also, my Mum's Mum wanted to 'get it out of the way' 

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1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Like I said, human nature is human nature. We haven't changed that much from our ancestors of a few centuries ago.  

What's your ultimate objective, though? What do you wish to see happen if and when our people rediscover and re-arm themselves with this information? Do you feel being sexually conservative (relating to day-to-day conduct for the individual and in a wider familial sense) is a negative? Would you accept your daughters, nieces, young female relatives, succumbing to a newly reawakened sexual consciousness that you seem to want to re-kindle in the Punjabi mindset? What's the end-game for you?

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54 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

What's your ultimate objective, though? What do you wish to see happen if and when our people rediscover and re-arm themselves with this information? Do you feel being sexually conservative (relating to day-to-day conduct for the individual and in a wider familial sense) is a negative? Would you accept your daughters, nieces, young female relatives, succumbing to a newly reawakened sexual consciousness that you seem to want to re-kindle in the Punjabi mindset? What's the end-game for you?

I think you've made some major leaps in reasoning here, and they are well off the mark. 

Truth is that many people already act out what you outlined above as negative behaviour (which it is), but we get in denial about it. My concern is that the conservatism that we've had/inherited up till now (which may well be influenced by victorian values snuck in during colonialism) hasn't helped us an iota in dealing with matters in this domain. Infinitely less sexually conservative communities (in the males), seem to be dealing with this issue much better than us at this point.    Maybe their lack of conservatism in this domain helped them achieve that? 

I agree with the DG mindset that suggests being coy or oblivious to these things is deadly. In that respect, a psychological conservatism about these things and how they impact people/society/families/the panth clearly appears to be detrimental. It's obvious that whoever composed CP thought that too, no?  Maybe a major part of the current situation is because we've been trained to think a particular way since the annexation?

Re-educating ourselves along the CP line, isn't about 're-awakening' some sexual liberation in Panjabis, rather understanding the related issues of psychology, biological evolution, social factors and yes, spirituality to arm ourselves from it. From what you see and hear about your environment - do you think that conservative streak has helped? Plus I see Sikhi as more universal than just Panjabis and that many nonPanjabis can benefit from this too. Sikhi has always encouraged fidelity and honesty - but it didn't pull any punches about showing the real world either. Make sense?   

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44 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Re-educating ourselves along the CP line, isn't about 're-awakening' some sexual liberation in Panjabis, rather understanding the related issues of psychology, biological evolution, social factors and yes, spirituality to arm ourselves from it.

Do you know any Sikhs, lol, I'm being sarcastic? Is this at all what you think they're capable of?  And who'll be doing this explaining? Sant Giani Gian Singh Khalsa (a fictional archetype, btw)? They wouldn't know where to begin, and most importantly they wouldn't dare it.

44 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think you've made some major leaps in reasoning here, and they are well off the mark.

I've been reading your thoughts on this particular subject for a while now. I tend to want to trace an idea from its inception to its actual realised conclusion as it would be enacted on a practical day-to-day basis. I wanted to learn what you hoped would happen if this policy of yours became reality one day.

I think much, if not all, of what you're proffering is ultimately beyond us as a group.

To ensure a junglee people (because ultimately that's what the vast majority are) behaves itself, you don't burden it with too much that it cannot process. You present that particular group simple morals and norms of conduct, and let it get on with things. Once you start to get into the deconstructional analysis side of things with Punjabis, it's taking things towards parody. Our Gurus understood this, and that's why they made things very simple and straightforward. Sure, there's also complexity and nuance available for exploration if the outliers in the group require some further sustenance to sustain their own egos, but for the vast majority it's kept simple.

Punjabis are a LOT more pragmatic on sexual issues than you give them credit for. I know it's been a while since you've been there and lived amongst them and spoken to them in their natural habitat, but they're aware of MANY things that would surprise you. They are relatively sophisticated in that blunt and rather direct way they tend to revel in. God knows how the relatively recent widespread access to online porn on handheld devices has affected the Punjabi consciousness in ways we will no doubt begin to discover in the coming years and decades.

As for wanting to "protect" them so they can protect themselves (I guess), again, I think you misunderstand their innate nature and character. They don't want or need protecting. What they truly want is to indulge themselves in these morally degenerate behaviour patterns, and then erect a facade of propriety for appearance's sake, effectively slipping back and forth between two flavours of existence. And there are no pangs of conscience or navel-gazing about the moral or ethical implications of their behaviour on the whole. Sure, a minority within this vast number do seem to discover religion and are seized by guilt over their past conduct, but for the majority these behaviours are as natural to them as breathing.

Honestly, you should think about going back home for a few months and studying apne in their natural habitat on a leisurely basis. Your mind will be blown at the contradictions in the fabric of humanity of those people. You'll also realise why that place is the way it is... and then you'll realise they're harvesting exactly what they deserve.

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23 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Do you know any Sikhs, lol, I'm being sarcastic? Is this at all what you think they're capable of?  And who'll be doing this explaining? Sant Giani Gian Singh Khalsa (a fictional archetype, btw)? They wouldn't know where to begin, and most importantly they wouldn't dare it.

I've been reading your thoughts on this particular subject for a while now. I tend to want to trace an idea from its inception to its actual realised conclusion as it would be enacted on a practical day-to-day basis. I wanted to learn what you hoped would happen if this policy of yours became reality one day.

I think much, if not all, of what you're proffering is ultimately beyond us as a group.

To ensure a junglee people (because ultimately that's what the vast majority are) behaves itself, you don't burden it with too much that it cannot process. You present that particular group simple morals and norms of conduct, and let it get on with things. Once you start to get into the deconstructional analysis side of things with Punjabis, it's taking things towards parody. Our Gurus understood this, and that's why they made things very simple and straightforward. Sure, there's also complexity and nuance available for exploration if the outliers in the group require some further sustenance to sustain their own egos, but for the vast majority it's kept simple.

Punjabis are a LOT more pragmatic on sexual issues than you give them credit for. I know it's been a while since you've been there and lived amongst them and spoken to them in their natural habitat, but they're aware of MANY things that would surprise you. They are relatively sophisticated in that blunt and rather direct way they tend to revel in. God knows how the relatively recent widespread access to online porn on handheld devices has affected the Punjabi consciousness in ways we will no doubt begin to discover in the coming years and decades.

As for wanting to "protect" them so they can protect themselves (I guess), again, I think you misunderstand their innate nature and character. They don't want or need protecting. What they truly want is to indulge themselves in these morally degenerate behaviour patterns, and then erect a facade of propriety for appearance's sake, effectively slipping back and forth between two flavours of existence. And there are no pangs of conscience or navel-gazing about the moral or ethical implications of their behaviour on the whole. Sure, a minority within this vast number do seem to discover religion and are seized by guilt over their past conduct, but for the majority these behaviours are as natural to them as breathing.

Honestly, you should think about going back home for a few months and studying apne in their natural habitat on a leisurely basis. Your mind will be blown at the contradictions in the fabric of humanity of those people. You'll also realise why that place is the way it is... and then you'll realise they're harvesting exactly what they deserve.

I hear you. You have some strong points there. 

It's like Puzzled once said (to paraphrase him):

It's probably lucky that the vast majority of rural apnay aren't too familiar with CP, because they'd love it - for all the wrong reasons.

Maybe texts like that are more useful for thinking, analytic types?   They certainly help me frame what I see in real life within a Sikh context. 

 

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19 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I hear you. You have some strong points there. 

It's like Puzzled once said (to paraphrase him):

It's probably lucky that the vast majority of rural apnay aren't too familiar with CP, because they'd love it - for all the wrong reasons.

Maybe texts like that are more useful for thinking, analytic types?   They certainly help me frame what I see in real life within a Sikh context. 

That's exaggerating. Maybe a large minority, I doubt a majority. Although I have not been much to Punjab in the past 10 years so the current youngsters might be different to the ones I knew

CP could be used to educate youngsters on important life lessons that they would otherwise be more likely to learn the hard way though

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