Why have Punjabi songs become so Arabized?

[Guest guest]

On 2/13/2022 at 1:40 PM, dallysingh101 said:

They guy I know who has most contact and interactions with these so-called sufi types is author Roop Dhillon. This is what he had to say about them (FTR I don't agree with a lot of what he says - highlights are mine):

 

"This may explain it. The guys I know are more Sufi orientated which means they are of the same ilk as Santan Hindus and thus more in sync with Baba Nanak's Sikhi but not I guess the Khalsa. So then all I can say is the pro punjabi guys seem to be different. It is an interesting point for me that the pro punjabi ones are mainly hailing from within Pakistan and are also targeted as Indian spies or traitors by those that put Islam before national pride. Also that the ones we are talking about may specifically include those in the west who like Sikhs in the west bought the wounds of 47 with them and lets face it are the guys my generation fought in the clubs and pubs in the 80s and 90s because of the hate between our communities at the time. I think many of them further alienated themselves from Pakistan after 9/11 and its consequences and lacking any linguistic connection with the Punjab joined the international Islamic brotherhood in reaction to George Bush etc and now are more like the Arabs you describe.

As I said take them individually.. anyhow one thing I am in agreement with you all...whenever I ask them about why they don't critize terrorism or all this grooming, there is no response, yet they are vocal about west picking on them. I have noted the ones I know in Pakistan disassociate themselves with these British products."

this makes no sense whatsoever.  what is this Roop on about?

 

[dallysingh101]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:54 PM, Guest guest said:

Hi these points are incorrect.

1) Theres no leaning to "Arabic derived compositions".  These aren't in the Arabic equivalent of Ragas.  None of these "singers" have any classical training worth mentioning.  Also, the classical forms (Patiala form?) is 1) all muslim singers 2) sang in Ragas, not Arabic music.

2) There is no "very early Sikh leaning (affection) for Sufism".  Bulleh Shah was not born before Guru Nanak, and Sheikh Farid is only one Bhagat out of 13 or so.  

3) In what way did Guru Nanak hold Sufism and "certain of their ways" in affection?  Please explain?  I don't see it in any Gurbani or any historical texts.

 

 

 

People will mention Mian Mir in response to your last point. 

[MisterrSingh]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:54 PM, Guest guest said:

Hi these points are incorrect.

1) Theres no leaning to "Arabic derived compositions".  These aren't in the Arabic equivalent of Ragas.  None of these "singers" have any classical training worth mentioning.  Also, the classical forms (Patiala form?) is 1) all muslim singers 2) sang in Ragas, not Arabic music.

2) There is no "very early Sikh leaning (affection) for Sufism".  Bulleh Shah was not born before Guru Nanak, and Sheikh Farid is only one Bhagat out of 13 or so.  

3) In what way did Guru Nanak hold Sufism and "certain of their ways" in affection?  Please explain?  I don't see it in any Gurbani or any historical texts.

1) The general Islamic impact on the Indian arts with initial Islamic trade incursions prior to the 12th century and later with the arrival of the first armed invasions is unavoidable. Are you denying fact AND history?

2) Now I know you're trolling. Are you telling me the Muslim composers and their works of Heer-Ranjha, Sahiban-Mirzan, aren't held up with affection and respect to this very day, and the general Sufi poetic styles and the scene itself wasn't emulated by Sikh artists? The chronological arrival and existence of various parties may differ, but before Sikhi came along, Islamic impact on Punjabi culture was CONCRETE.

3) Muslim saints -- that were in existence PRIOR TO Sikhi -- having their compositions included in Sikh scriptures would suggest you're talking out of our behind. Don't dare respond with, "Well, they weren't Muslim in the strictest sense of the word."

I don't see it in any Gurbani or any historical texts.

There's a lot of things never mentioned in Gurbani and historical texts. Does that mean they don't exist?

[Ranjeet01]

Because they love those back of throat phlemy sounds, lol

[Guest guest]

On 2/19/2022 at 6:19 PM, MisterrSingh said:

1) The general Islamic impact on the Indian arts with initial Islamic trade incursions prior to the 12th century and later with the arrival of the first armed invasions is unavoidable. Are you denying fact AND history?

2) Now I know you're trolling. Are you telling me the Muslim composers and their works of Heer-Ranjha, Sahiban-Mirzan, aren't held up with affection and respect to this very day, and the general Sufi poetic styles and the scene itself wasn't emulated by Sikh artists? The chronological arrival and existence of various parties may differ, but before Sikhi came along, Islamic impact on Punjabi culture was CONCRETE.

3) Muslim saints -- that were in existence PRIOR TO Sikhi -- having their compositions included in Sikh scriptures would suggest you're talking out of our behind. Don't dare respond with, "Well, they weren't Muslim in the strictest sense of the word."

I don't see it in any Gurbani or any historical texts.

There's a lot of things never mentioned in Gurbani and historical texts. Does that mean they don't exist?

hello

1) haven't you heard of Bhagat Jaidev (in SGGS) and Gita Govinda?  I think that predates 12th century.  Were Heer and Ranjha even muslim?  And they were all somewhere in Punjab, not Arabia.  The "general" impact of Islamic arts?  What does that mean?  Which 'Arabic dervied' compositions?  Please name them.

2) Waris Shah was after Sikh Gurus, not before.  How was the influence "concrete" before "sikhi came along"?

3) You refered to Guru Nanak holding sufism and "certain of their ways"  Merely saying that there are Muslim bhagats doesn't imply Guru Nanak holding some special effection.  Their teachings aren't that different from the Hindu ones that are (more numerously) included in SGGS.  Nor do any of them follow Sharia law.

Sadly on this site merely having a different opinion gets a person labelled as a troll.

[GurjantGnostic]

On 3/2/2022 at 12:30 PM, Guest guest said:

hello

1) haven't you heard of Bhagat Jaidev (in SGGS) and Gita Govinda?  I think that predates 12th century.  Were Heer and Ranjha even muslim?  And they were all somewhere in Punjab, not Arabia.  The "general" impact of Islamic arts?  What does that mean?  Which 'Arabic dervied' compositions?  Please name them.

2) Waris Shah was after Sikh Gurus, not before.  How was the influence "concrete" before "sikhi came along"?

3) You refered to Guru Nanak holding sufism and "certain of their ways"  Merely saying that there are Muslim bhagats doesn't imply Guru Nanak holding some special effection.  Their teachings aren't that different from the Hindu ones that are (more numerously) included in SGGS.  Nor do any of them follow Sharia law.

Sadly on this site merely having a different opinion gets a person labelled as a troll.

Not on my radar bro. Make a profile. Welcome. 

[Premi5]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:27 PM, MisterrSingh said:

I wish we had some form of Sikh-owned (or at least sympathetic) publishing houses in the West that didn't kow-tow ideologically to Western devilry. We're at a place where unless you have a gay / trans/ black / Muslim character being "fierce" (i.e. supporting the Paradigm), you aren't going to get published even if your work is top-notch.

 

On 2/13/2022 at 4:17 PM, Premi5 said:

Here you go, Misterrsingh. Maybe this is what you were looking for ?

https://www.khalishouse.com/about-us

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@MisterrSingh looks like one for you…