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Interesting photo and story -Jamadar Arjan Singh


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3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Dying for a foreign sovereign, whose armies had invaded your land and subjugated your people, is not shaheedi, however people might try and twist it.

Look, the fact is, between Sikh males, what's now more apparent than ever, is that when we mess up strategically/tactically/socially/militarily, it's our own women folk that suffer the most, and that too in horrendous ways. We might die, they get horrific, abusive treatment, sometimes over sustained periods of time that most can't protect themselves from. This is a complete failure on our part as men. 

There were always counter-colonial movements amongst our own, the Ghadr party being a relatively well known one, so some of our people were fighting for their own freedom, as opposed to fighting for foreign invaders. If people wanted to 'prove' their bravery, they could've fought for these types of movements, and be true shaheeds. 

In the end, what we have to say is that the precarious position we found ourselves in, with the mass rapes, kidnappings and murders (that'll numerically make what's happening in ukraine right now seem tame - and I'm pretty sure the same could be said about a lot of recent, more prominent conflicts), can never be repeated by our community because we've got hordes of apnay whose minds, bodies and souls are elsewhere, chasing some outsider concept of 'valour' -  it's a complete failure on our part. I'd say it was the most disastrous path ever followed by our people, and boy did we pay for it! 

You talk about people not fighting being seen as cowards - well, I disagree. We know loads of press-ganging was going on. We know alleviating poverty was more of a factor in decisions than what you are saying. Besides, look at the example of Muhhamad Ali - he never fought in the Vietnam war and gave cogent, intelligent and morally upright reasons for this. That was braver than being herded into another people's conflict - and we can see how grateful the people fought for were, by how they left us to our own devices to be murdered and slaughtered, and then didn't even bother to the give the sepoys who fought in ww2 a pension in the end.   

Seems like high level stupid decisions on our people's part, that we need to acknowledge and confront, lest some <banned word filter activated> tries to lead us up this route again in future.  These aren't remotely intelligent policies or strategies. We can't afford to be doing this.  

 

Dally

People during that time may have seen things very differently. 

Their values were very different, what you find unacceptable they would see as normal and vica versa. 

They do not have the benefit of hindsight. 

They aren't geo-political strategists.

What has been done cannot be undone. 

 

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If I understand what my great grandfather went through. Looking at it contextually.

He fought in WW1 in the trenches and threw his medals in the river, probably through some bitterness.

WW1 trench warfare was not the same kind of warfare they had previously which probably charging with bayonets, cavalry, cannons. WW1 brought trench warfare, chemical warfare  (gas masks were introduced then) and air attacks.

He was born in 1896, so he was about 18 years old when WW1 broke out in 1914 and coming from the environment he did and the fact we do have a martial history and with all his friends wanting to fight as well.

If you understand contextually that means 40 years before it would have been the 1850s which wasn't a very long time when there was a Khalsa Empire. 

So things would have been fresher in their minds of what transpired post Maharaj Ranjit Singh.

I think that the Sikhs of the late 1800's probably hated the Purbias,Dogras  and other Indians for their betrayal more so than the British.

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2 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Dally

People during that time may have seen things very differently. 

Their values were very different, what you find unacceptable they would see as normal and vica versa. 

They do not have the benefit of hindsight. 

They aren't geo-political strategists.

What has been done cannot be undone. 

 

I get that bro. 

Important lessons have to be learnt. We don't EVER want to be in that (avoidable in my opinion) position of mass genocide ever again. We HAVE TO expect much better leadership and foresight - and in the absence of this, as ground level Sikh men, dig our heals in and derail attempts to use our community like this ever again. It's a given now that our 'leaders' are likely to be compromised, or genuinely stupid and malleable - we as ground level Sikhs have to ensure no one ever uses us like that again, and that we never walking into a death trap like that half-blind.

It's about growth and evolution of Sikh consciousness too. Being more politically and socially astute than our ancestors were (and I'm not saying they didn't have lots of good qualities).  We have global experiences now. We have to open these types of topics up. 

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1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

If I understand what my great grandfather went through. Looking at it contextually.

He fought in WW1 in the trenches and threw his medals in the river, probably through some bitterness.

WW1 trench warfare was not the same kind of warfare they had previously which probably charging with bayonets, cavalry, cannons. WW1 brought trench warfare, chemical warfare  (gas masks were introduced then) and air attacks.

He was born in 1896, so he was about 18 years old when WW1 broke out in 1914 and coming from the environment he did and the fact we do have a martial history and with all his friends wanting to fight as well.

If you understand contextually that means 40 years before it would have been the 1850s which wasn't a very long time when there was a Khalsa Empire. 

So things would have been fresher in their minds of what transpired post Maharaj Ranjit Singh.

I think that the Sikhs of the late 1800's probably hated the Purbias,Dogras  and other Indians for their betrayal more so than the British.

Your family history is the history of the majority of our people. My grandfather's younger brother also fought in the trenches of northern France. Unfortunately his didn't survive the war and became Shaheed in 1915. We have a matti in our village to commemorate him. His name is written at the Indian war memorial at Neuve Chapelle.

Neuve-Chapelle Memorial (CWGC) - WW1 Cemeteries.com - A photographic guide  to over 4000 military cemeteries and memorials

 

Before Corona we used to visit that memorial every year on his death anniversary. There is a visitors book there and there were so many comments by apnay whose ancestors fought in the battle and  have visited the memorial from  countries like UK, Canada and USA. 

http://www.radcliffeontrentww1.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Sikhs.png

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2 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I think that the Sikhs of the late 1800's probably hated the Purbias,Dogras  and other Indians for their betrayal more so than the British.

And we can't ignore all that we've learnt about how these people have been subverting us. Seems like a big con job and a lot of jedi mind tricks played on a lot of simple-minded, largely illiterate rural Sikhs. 

Why they were like that is a story in itself! Sikhi's emphasis on literacy and education (especially in dasmesh pita's darbar) is well known known.

 

We can't be simple minded or naïve in this day and age. It costs lives. All Sikh men have a responsibility to protect their community. We have to warn our own (who might well have a predilection) against falling for some other communities romanticised portrayals of events, and have them dragged around the world when they should be keeping an eye closer to home.  

 

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12 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

And we can't ignore all that we've learnt about how these people have been subverting us. Seems like a big con job and a lot of jedi mind tricks played on a lot of simple-minded, largely illiterate rural Sikhs. 

Why they were like that is a story in itself! Sikhi's emphasis on literacy and education (especially in dasmesh pita's darbar) is well known known.

 

We can't be simple minded or naïve in this day and age. It costs lives. All Sikh men have a responsibility to protect their community. We have to warn our own (who might well have a predilection) against falling for some other communities romanticised portrayals of events, and have them dragged around the world when they should be keeping an eye closer to home.  

 

It's easier to subvert and brainwash an educated person than an illiterate person.

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16 minutes ago, proactive said:

Your family history is the history of the majority of our people. My grandfather's younger brother also fought in the trenches of northern France. Unfortunately his didn't survive the war and became Shaheed in 1915. We have a matti in our village to commemorate him. His name is written at the Indian war memorial at Neuve Chapelle.

Neuve-Chapelle Memorial (CWGC) - WW1 Cemeteries.com - A photographic guide  to over 4000 military cemeteries and memorials

 

Before Corona we used to visit that memorial every year on his death anniversary. There is a visitors book there and there were so many comments by apnay whose ancestors fought in the battle and  have visited the memorial from  countries like UK, Canada and USA. 

http://www.radcliffeontrentww1.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Sikhs.png

My great grandfather was one of four brothers  

He ended up moving to Singapore.

I imagine that our forefathers families had a lot of siblings so there would be a lot of brothers.

My great uncle on my mother's side fought in WW2 in the far east.

My nana also wanted to fight but his father told him he had to look after the land.

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4 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

My great grandfather was one of four brothers  

He ended up moving to Singapore.

I imagine that our forefathers families had a lot of siblings so there would be a lot of brothers.

My great uncle on my mother's side fought in WW2 in the far east.

My nana also wanted to fight but his father told him he had to look after the land.

This something that armchair experts who have no experience of rural Punjab fail to understand. After 1857, the Sikhs were in competition with the more numerous Muslims and Hindus of Punjab. What our armchair expert thinks our people should have done is stayed out the British administration and army and fought back against the British. The Muslims and Hindus would have loved that, the Muslims especially would have cornered the army and police jobs and relished having the British to back them while they enacted another genocide against us. 

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