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Interesting photo and story -Jamadar Arjan Singh

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think we need to get the focus off the sepoys and remember the genocide instead. There are important and pertinent lessons there. Promoting the former just increases the likelihood of generating a new crop of sepoys. We need to find alternative ways to train and arm our people (that's if the panth wants to go that way), and also exercise and teach a sovereign mindset instead of the usual docile, servile thing. I rather our people learn about the deadly consequences of  failing to focus on our own security than promote mercenary attitudes towards forming alliances with people who will leave you to die (without a blink) whenever you aren't useful to them, and I suspect just for the sake of it too (like a power move to keep people down).   

I don't these guys that fought were docile. To fight a war and risk being killed is not being docile.

And they made a conscious choice to fight, it was their choice. They were not servile.

These are our grandfathers and great-grandfather's. They are part of our history. We cannot forget them.

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't dispute the point that educated people can lack savvy, but again, if we look at the plethora of problems that our community have faced over the last 70 odd years, it looks like a complete lack of foresight in terms of economical development.   It's one thing to opportunistically jump into foreign lands for opportunities (which our lot do generally well) but it's another to develop a robust, interdependent economy in your own territory. Our lot are doing an exodus from Panjab due to failure of the latter. And right now, they look pretty clueless in this respect. That's where education can come in. If you expect an illiterate pendu to plan and develop a modern robust economical strategy, you must be insane. And which apnay parents don't want their children to be purhay likhay hoey these days. 

And you seem to be stuck in some loop? Whenever I mention education, you keep going back to a western model, like that is the only option. It's not. We can develop our own models. It's exactly this type undersight that screws us over. We've got a culture of low expectations of leadership going on right now.  

If you are part of a country called India that was run by educated elites and see the job that they did.

It was not as if they were doing a great job.

A lot of pre-partition Punjab was quite industrialised.

Furthermore, I never mentioned anything about the western education model. Though education system teaches you how to follow instructions. 

Education system deserves it's own thread.  I don't want to de-rail this one.

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13 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I don't these guys that fought were docile. To fight a war and risk being killed is not being docile.

And they made a conscious choice to fight, it was their choice. They were not servile.

I disagree. And even the people recruiting them are on record saying they were docile. Your great grandpa might have been different though from what you've told us.  

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/23/2022 at 12:34 PM, dallysingh101 said:

We can't be simple minded or naïve in this day and age. It costs lives. All Sikh men have a responsibility to protect their community. We have to warn our own (who might well have a predilection) against falling for some other communities romanticised portrayals of events, and have them dragged around the world when they should be keeping an eye closer to home.  

While you are right, you are also too idealistic. 

Economic reasons will always be the most important. A starving person or even a person at poverty level just surviving cannot enact any change or even any respect, neither from their own community nor from another community. 

So yes being a soldier was for economic reasons. But it made sense. Maharaja ranjit had employed a huge number of Sikhs as soldiers. Once British ppl took over, all of these soldiers' were let go after confistication of their weapons including kirpaans. Some of these soldiers turned into daaku(bandits) rather than give up weapons. But most were turned loose. 

What were they supposed to do? You would probably say organize into their own army but remember they had no weapons and it was outlawed to have any. Or you would say industrialize and learn new skills. If they did that, first they would be taking jobs of people of other castes and have to compete with them. Secondly, when one is thirsty, it is already too late to dig a well. 

Thirdly like one of the posters said before, they had many brothers so they were expendable. If they went home and tamely farmed, they would decrease land ownership (typical lot of second sons). So they did what they were best at: join army. 

It made financial, tactical sense. Also some used army to travel to other countries and settle their or join factories. And their offspring fared better. So they did make the smart decisions. Which we are still copying to this day, moving to the west. 

Ofc you would want them to have carved a economically independent homeland in that time. But be realistic. 

Even with all our knowledge and know how, who is willing to go back to panjab? We have a chance to save it before it js engulfed by gujjars, Christians and immigrants from UP? We have a chance to fix the teaching of sikhi and make a difference  there in terms of economics more than we can in the west.

Once panjab becomes the Palestine of Sikhs, completely engulfed and settled by non Sikhs. When Sikh diaspora need a homeland to return to in 100 or 150 years, in hindsight it will be easy to blame our generation. 

But in reality, after losing a war to indian government, what choice did our generation have? Even in 1984, the anandpur sahib resolution had economic reasons in it. 

And the recent farmer protests were so well attended because of economic reasons. No other panthic protest had garnered so much support. From bargarhi to protests against beadbi to sarbat khalsa. All was beat by farmer protests. Economics moves the world. And to expect our ancestors who had just lost a war and seen their enemies who collaborated with the British ( like dogras) in power over them, to be better than we are now is just idealism. 

I think joining any army is a just occupation. As long as you yourself refuse to participate in any rape or pillage. Working for Apple and Nike who support sweat shops etc is also exploitation of the poor. It's a job. Also it keeps the Sikh youth militarily ready. Now look at the state of Sikh youth. In 1984, sant ji needed the help of subheg singh, a military trained guy. 

The ghadar party singhs tried to recruit faujis in British army because they had the arms and fighting know how. 

As long as we train loyalty to panth first. A Sikh should do almost any job. Like satwant singh/Beant singh and the faujis during 1984 who left their posts to try to join akal takhat. As long as loyalty to panth is there, a Sikh will leave their job when it becomes anti panthic or oppressive. So it's not the job or where they fight that matters. 

Even in modern Indian history, Sikhs were employed by Indian govt to put down rebellions in sri Lanka and the fight between east and west Pakistan. Sikhs still acted honorably. Sikhs protected the women who were being raped by the east Pakistani army. And in sri Lanka, the Sikh officer got a phone call to assassinate the peaceful leader of the communist rebellion. Sikh army officer did not act on it. 

So in any occupation. You can be honorable.

Yes it's terrible about the 1947 genocide. Where were the Sikh soldiers at that time? WwII had already ended?


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13 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Economic reasons will always be the most important.

That's what I'm increasingly grasping now. Our communities problems mostly seem to stem from socio-economic factors. Mainly because we aren't a community that has developed a strong, robust economy like others have, that fulfil their own needs and can even afford to hire outsiders. We had a strong economy rapidly develop under M. Ranjit Singh, but the reality is that we've probably been majorly underdeveloped as a quom in these areas since, and it's not a small thing. It has wide ranging implications.  

We need economists, business people who can nurture and grow world class organisations and industrialists more than anything right now maybe? 

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