Reincarnation and Sikhi

[Jacfsing2]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:38 PM, BhForce said:

Now ask yourself, are the poor being protected in this world? Are the sinners (classic examples like Hitler or Auranzeb) punished in this world? Not necessarily. Plenty of killers and tyrants got off scot free or at the most were killed. So just one death in return for hundreds or thousands of killings?

What about people like Ravan or Harnakash who get Mukti despite being tyrants?

[BhForce]

2 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

What about people like Ravan or Harnakash who get Mukti despite being tyrants?

I'm trying to understand your point, could you explain it further?

I made the point that Gurbani says sinners will be punished, but plenty of sinners aren't punished in this world, so therefore there must be next world where they are punished.

Where were you trying to go with your point?

Secondly, could you explain how Harnaksh and Ravan got mukti?

Gurbani says God killed the evil Harnaksh:

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥
Wicked Harnakhsh, the Lord killed and saved Prehlad. p451

[BhForce]

13 hours ago, Premi5 said:

 

It is said in Gurbani (I think) that those who think of their partners/women at death are born again as prostitutes; those who think of their house then become ghosts; those who think of money/greed become pigs. 

Just for context, this is that Shabad by Bhagat Trilochan ji:

 

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥
Gujri.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he has thinks of wealth and dies in such a thought,
ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥
is born again and again as the serpent species.
ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O sister do not ever forget the Name of the Master of the world. Pause.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks of a woman, and dies in such a thought,
ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
he is born again and again as a prostitute.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks of the sons and dies in such a thought,
ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
he is born again as the swine species.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks of mansions and if he dies in such thought,
ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
he is born again and again as a goblin.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks the Lords, and if he dies in such a thought;
ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
Says Tirlochan, that man is emancipated and the yellow - robed Lord abides in his heart.

 

This shabad makes no sense in the Missionary paradigm. They claim avagavan (going back and forth, i.e., reincarnation) refers to man going to good thoughts vs bad thoughts. Quite a stretch, but sometimes they could make it work.

They can't make it work here. I mean, why is Gurbani referring to "ant kaal" (end time)? Then the word Avtar. And the pesky word Jon(i). I.e., yoni, or literally birth canal or life.

It's very clear this shabad is in reference to end-of-life. What sense would it make for a young man who doesn't have sons? Or a wife?

[BhForce]

13 hours ago, Premi5 said:

Can anyone give some other examples ? I remember there are some of men from Gurus' times who became an animal and later Sants have come into the world and taken those souls out of that Jooni

Are there other clear examples of how a specific action will lead to specific consequences?

Are those born deaf or blind so, because they caused others to be that way in previous lives ?

There are a few specific examples given in Sikh History (Sakhis). Such as Moola Khatri.

But you should also know that it was (I believe) Sant Bhindrawale who said that while it may be the case that a specific action will lead to a specific reincarnation, it is not our place to make assumptions the other way: I.e., look at someone who is poor or whatever and assert that they did something specifically bad in the previous life.

That's God's domain.

All we need to be concerned with is to live life as Guru ji told us and we'll get the reward of that.

[BhForce]

Gurbani says to be absorbed in God, don't bother with others, and God will take care of you:

 

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਦਇਆਲ ਸੇਤੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
My soul is pierced by the Merciful Master, O my mother.

ਕਉਣੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ ॥
Who knows the pain of another?

ਹਮ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਿੰਤ ਪਰਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

I don't worry about others. Pause. p588

 

[Singh1989]

On 12/19/2022 at 4:56 AM, BhForce said:

Nature magazine says number of species in the world is about 8.7 million.

Gurbani speaks of ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨ (8.4 million species). This is remarkably close.

ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥

"Thou have created eighty-four lacs of species and given to them all sustenance since that very time." p1403

Note: The word joni is used. It seems quite clear that joni refers to lifeforms and not life stages (unlike what the missionaries think).

 

Just to make it even more clear:

Kabeer ji writes:

ਬਇਆਲੀਸ ਲਖ ਜੀ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਤੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ ॥੧॥

"Forty-two lacs of beings are in water. How can I bathe the Pervading Lord therein O brother." p485

So how is it that jooni is supposed to mean life phase or stage of life?

 

The missionaries trying to convince you that "jooni" means stage of life is as if you went to the electronics store to buy a television and the salesman tried to sell you binoculars because you can also see (vision) far (tele) with a binocular. It's just such a stretch.

The missionaries trying to convince you that "jooni" means stage of life is as if you went to the electronics store to buy a television and the salesman tried to sell you binoculars because you can also see (vision) far (tele) with a binocular. It's just such a stretch.

Lol  

[Singh1989]

8.4 lacs does exist. At end of OP's mentioned shabd the last verse is "Whoever remembers God before dying will get liberated." 

Property / house is ghost. "Mera baccha mera baccha" is pig. 

Also "Kach pkai authe paii, Nanak keha jape jaii" (unripe or riped souls are only decided in the Lord's court, where the truth gets revealed)... not we humans deciding "that person was a mona he gets hell" or "that sevadar is in Akaal Purkh's charna)... That sewadarr's soul can be trapped in the 4.2 lacs joon (underwater species) for all we know! 

Also I believe it is possible the 8.4 lac doesn't necessarily last long as it sounds... rats survival rate is 6 months, common house fly 2 weeks (max)... bigger animals last for no more than 20 human years. It is also possible that the soul doesn't necessarily go through ALL 8.4 lacs but can be ANY 8.4 (unless of course, Gurbani specifies the soul transmigrates through ALL 8.4 LACS specifically)... that means we go from gandhii nalii ka keda all the way to a... soul trapped in a mountain(?) Or even an Elephant... But even then I'd estimate it will be not for 100's of years as it appears. But of course it's all my opinion. 

If we do go thru ALL the 8.4lacs we must be extremely unlucky souls. And why stop there? Wha about a person born deaf, blind n mute??? I believe their next life must be human again... isn't it unfair they get 8.4 lacs / hell straight after??? 

 

[Guest DumbIdiotBanda]

I heard this from I believe the teachings of Rara Sahib, that your soul goes through a journey of great pains before reaching the court of Dharam Raj, and Jamdoots take your good Karams to make your trip easier, such as if you are walking through lots of hot desert, if you donated Umbrellas to charity, Jamdoots will take that karam and give you an umbrella to make your trip easier. When you enter Dharam Raj's court, you go through temporary hell or heaven to burn your bad Karams. This raises a question

 

Why do you have to go through Chaurasi Lakh Joon if your bad Karams are erased through hell? Perhaps all your karam are not burned in hell, so you burn the remaining few with going through Jooni. But this raises another question.

 

Why are people, who burned their previous Karams away, born with birth defects. Perhaps a human birth with birth defects is a test, or another burning of karams.

 

My last question is, if karams are burned through Chaurasi Lakh and hell, why do bad karams still affect people like me today? Maybe all your karams are not burned through this painful experiences, but a lot are to take some burden off your shoulders in your Janam of a human so you can focus on Bhagati.