Amritsar city should be given the status of a holy place

[dallysingh101]

[californiasardar1]

15 hours ago, Premi5 said:

No, Amritsar has always been our 'holy city' like it or not; actually we have a few, but who are we copying?

I respectfully disagree with the notion of a "holy city."

It is important to have (temporal and spiritual) centers for Sikhs to organize. But the location of the center itself is not important.

Notice how Guru Gobind Singh never even crossed the Beas River in his lifetime.

[californiasardar1]

6 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

The amount of Singh's that have sacrificed themselves to defend the place says otherwise. I don't agree with you bro. 

Amritsar is VERY special. 

 

If it is so special, please explain why it was unnecessary for Guru Gobind Singh to visit it, much less establish control over it.

[dallysingh101]

6 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

If it is so special, please explain why it was unnecessary for Guru Gobind Singh to visit it, much less establish control over it.

Bro are you that uninformed? 

You do know nauvain padshah was born in Amritsar? There may have been compelling reasons for what you mention. Inter-family disputes that took a back seat to Guru ji's greater mission. 

Sikhs flocked to see the Guru [Tegh Bahadhur] and presented him with many gifts and offerings. One who was not so happy about the whole affair was the troublesome Dhir Mal, grandson of Guru Hargobind who had wanted people to acclaim him as the Guru since he was in possession of the Guru Granth Sahib written by Guru Arjan Dev. Dhir Mal became so angry that he planned an assassination attempt. He sent Shihan a masand (priest) loyal to him and some men to attack the Guru while he slept. Dhir Mal's men attacked the house of Guru Tegh Bahadur, shot the Guru and ransacked his belongings. Luckily Guru Tegh Bahadur was not seriously wounded. In retaliation loyal Sikhs raided Dhir Mal's house, looting it including the original copy of the Guru Granth Sahib and presented all of the bounty to the Guru as revenge. Guru Tegh Bahadur believed in forgiveness and ordered all of his property returned, including the original copy of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Tegh Bahadur now accepted the role of leading the Sikhs and set out on a number of missionary journeys. He visited Kiratpur and then made his way to the other great centers of Sikhism, Tarn Taran, Khadur Sahib, Goindwal and Amritsar. At Amritsar Guru Tegh Bahadur bathed in the sacred pool but he was refused entry into the Golden Temple which was under the control of Harji, grandson of that other famous troublemaker to the Gurus, Prithi Chand. Guru Tegh Bahadur then journeyed back to Kiratpur. Here he encountered some Sodhi family jealousy and decided to found a new township. The Guru acquired a tract of land from the raja of Kahlur and founded the town of Chak Nanaki in 1665, named in honour of his mother (later to be known as Anandpur Sahib). The Guru now continued his journeys to spread the messages and teachings of Sikhism among the masses across the land. https://www.sikhs.org/guru9.htm

So dasmesh pita may have made a decision to carry on their mission of spreading dharam and organising Sikhs for the current and forthcoming dharamyudh at that point.  The decision was the right one, as Singhs subsequently wrested control over Amritsar afterwards. 

[dallysingh101]

@californiasardar1

 

Bro, have you been to Harmandir Sahib?

[Jacfsing2]

13 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

If it is so special, please explain why it was unnecessary for Guru Gobind Singh to visit it, much less establish control over it.

Are you going to start saying Bihar and Maharashtra are more important for Sikhs than Punjab?

[californiasardar1]

21 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

@californiasardar1

 

Bro, have you been to Harmandir Sahib?

Yes.

[californiasardar1]

14 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Are you going to start saying Bihar and Maharashtra are more important for Sikhs than Punjab?

 

I don't think any parcel of land is inherently important. Please go over the mool mantar again. Or think about the sakhi of Guru Nanak visiting Mecca.

Of course having centers for spiritual and temporal matters is important for sustaining a community. But the specific locations are unimportant.

[californiasardar1]

21 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Bro are you that uninformed? 

You do know nauvain padshah was born in Amritsar? There may have been compelling reasons for what you mention. Inter-family disputes that took a back seat to Guru ji's greater mission. 

Sikhs flocked to see the Guru [Tegh Bahadhur] and presented him with many gifts and offerings. One who was not so happy about the whole affair was the troublesome Dhir Mal, grandson of Guru Hargobind who had wanted people to acclaim him as the Guru since he was in possession of the Guru Granth Sahib written by Guru Arjan Dev. Dhir Mal became so angry that he planned an assassination attempt. He sent Shihan a masand (priest) loyal to him and some men to attack the Guru while he slept. Dhir Mal's men attacked the house of Guru Tegh Bahadur, shot the Guru and ransacked his belongings. Luckily Guru Tegh Bahadur was not seriously wounded. In retaliation loyal Sikhs raided Dhir Mal's house, looting it including the original copy of the Guru Granth Sahib and presented all of the bounty to the Guru as revenge. Guru Tegh Bahadur believed in forgiveness and ordered all of his property returned, including the original copy of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Tegh Bahadur now accepted the role of leading the Sikhs and set out on a number of missionary journeys. He visited Kiratpur and then made his way to the other great centers of Sikhism, Tarn Taran, Khadur Sahib, Goindwal and Amritsar. At Amritsar Guru Tegh Bahadur bathed in the sacred pool but he was refused entry into the Golden Temple which was under the control of Harji, grandson of that other famous troublemaker to the Gurus, Prithi Chand. Guru Tegh Bahadur then journeyed back to Kiratpur. Here he encountered some Sodhi family jealousy and decided to found a new township. The Guru acquired a tract of land from the raja of Kahlur and founded the town of Chak Nanaki in 1665, named in honour of his mother (later to be known as Anandpur Sahib). The Guru now continued his journeys to spread the messages and teachings of Sikhism among the masses across the land. https://www.sikhs.org/guru9.htm

So dasmesh pita may have made a decision to carry on their mission of spreading dharam and organising Sikhs for the current and forthcoming dharamyudh at that point.  The decision was the right one, as Singhs subsequently wrested control over Amritsar afterwards. 

Yes, but  I don't see what the location of Guru Tegh Bahadur's birth has to do with this.

 

Amritsar has taken on some sort of unintended meaning, in my opinion, because Sikhs are insecure and feel a need to mimic what people in other religions do. And, of course, people like visiting and taking photos in front of the "Golden Temple" (note that it was not intended to be gold-plated, but that is another matter).

We are really selling Sikhi short of we insist on the notion of a "holy city." Waheguru is everywhere, Guru Granth Sahib maharaj can take prakah anywhere.

 

Here's something to think about: Nankana Sahib has effectively been out of the control of the panth since 1947, and Sikhi survived. Do you know that Amritsar was EXTREMELY close to being awarded to Pakistan in 1947? You know what would have happened then? Sikhs would have been forced out of Amritsar (as they have been in the past), and Sikhi would have continued on with another place being viewed as the center of spiritual and temporal affairs. Maybe this thread would be about whether Anandpur Sahib should be given "holy city" (whatever that means) status.

[dallysingh101]

12 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

Yes, but  I don't see what the location of Guru Tegh Bahadur's birth has to do with this.

 

Amritsar has taken on some sort of unintended meaning, in my opinion, because Sikhs are insecure and feel a need to mimic what people in other religions do. And, of course, people like visiting and taking photos in front of the "Golden Temple" (note that it was not intended to be gold-plated, but that is another matter).

We are really selling Sikhi short of we insist on the notion of a "holy city." Waheguru is everywhere, Guru Granth Sahib maharaj can take prakah anywhere.

 

Here's something to think about: Nankana Sahib has effectively been out of the control of the panth since 1947, and Sikhi survived. Do you know that Amritsar was EXTREMELY close to being awarded to Pakistan in 1947? You know what would have happened then? Sikhs would have been forced out of Amritsar (as they have been in the past), and Sikhi would have continued on with another place being viewed as the center of spiritual and temporal affairs. Maybe this thread would be about whether Anandpur Sahib should be given "holy city" (whatever that means) status.

I think I get your point, and yes, maybe we shouldn't use the frameworks/conceptualisations of other religions i.e 'holy city' to try and describe Amritsar, but as you can see from what I posted from external Persian sources earlier, Harmandir Sahib DOES have a very long history of having a special place in Sikh culture, so there is nothing new in this. Plus it's indisputable that this was started by our Gurus themselves.  How we represent this from our own traditions outwards without overlaying outsider constructs upon it is the question then I guess. 

I previously provided information from external sources confirming Harmandir Sahib's importance, but it's important to remember that even our own early sources clearly point at Amritsar's importance. And this goes beyond spiritual matters, as it was town that developed out of our Guru's own purposeful intentions and has a very strong social/economic aspect too. Amritsar is historically very important to Sikhs, that's unquestionable. We are humans, we do need centres that help foster communal feeling. Amritsar does just that, and it seems unquestionable that this was one of the objectives of our Gurus in founding the place. That so many Singhs sacrificed themselves for this place is no small matter either.    

I think the issue of M. Ranjit Singh later placing gold is another unrelated matter, and that we don't really need to broach in this discussion. 

 

Plus how do you interpret the Persian accounts that cover a period only a generation or so removed from dasmesh pita's physical presence?