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A woman's point of view....


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Fateh,

I don’t know why babbian make a big deal out of this every few weeks.

First of all veerji I would like to tell you that I started this thread, like i've said on my post because the males on this forum had started speaking about it, but before I could add my reply that thread was closed since it was off topic.... so we dont start this every week.... it was started already and I just wanted to give my input. Sorry if I did something wrong.

Secondly, at no point in my post did I say that I was ready to be part of the Punj. I'm a moorakh, and I know I am nothing. I could never be one of the punj even if woman were allowed. I wrote this post as a general topic about other woman. Again at no point did I say that i was ready or ever will be.

I guess some people could call this wasting time, however, as the name of this forum suggests, this is a type of sangat aswell. where we can put our opinions out and learn what others have to say. Like I've learned today from you, that our Guru Ji's in reality did not create us as equals and that we have no right to say nething about our position since it has been set for over 300 years and we shouldnt complain.... i guess i better go and tell all my friends that what i've told them so far about our religion treating everyone as equal is wrong.......

BTW congrats on winning the $500.00, very impressive............................

pul chuk maaf

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I don’t know why babbian make a big deal out of this every few weeks. The babbian that read this, sorry to be so harsh, but, do u guys actually fit the qualifications of being a panj? I have seen a few brahmgiani-bibbian and they don’t spend their time on the internet but are busy doing abhayas, paath and kirtan all day. I have never seen them ask for “equal rights” for themselves and to do sewa in the panj. Sure if your awastha is up there then you can discuss this. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think I will ever be ready to be in the panj because I lack everything needed to do this sewa.

Veerji,

First of all, nice post and i was glad to read all what you had to say... ^_^

But veerji this is just wrong of you to say. Bibian have all the right to give out their own word on a issue that even GURU NANAK DEV JI himself said to the world that women are equal....

.... Really veerji, my personal feelings.. i am VERY ashamed to be a male if this sort of treatement against women is present in the world today. I am soo ashamed of being called a sikh and not present women as equal to men in the world today.

Veerji those panj who are MALES have come from a WOMEN .. so you tell

me veerji, who is more superior .. the women who has given birth to them or those males themselves!?!?!

I just don tknow how to argue this point anymore. PLEASE, THINK about who we are talkin about here.. these bibian are our shaan .. they are our everything.. they gave us life and reason to get one wit Guru ji.. lets have a LITTLE respect for them.

I am for bibian all the way !!!! ^_^^_^^_^

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Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!!

Sony Bhenji...thats a wonderful piece u wrote :umm: ......anyways now Davinder Singh ji...what u wrote may seem true with all the facts etc.....but ur points ain't strong at all....how can we Judge or come close to analyse whether our gurus are telling us to just respect woman and not consider them equal.....when its GURU GOBIND SINGH JI who gave us the name Singh and give the women Kaur(Princess)......and at amrit sanchars the maryada for the women is the same as the one for the men..women have to wear the 5 k's too and ...sometimes i get the feeling that we are so weak as compared to them...so maybe they aren't equal to us at all but maybe they are soo much more above us.......without them we wouldn't be here......remember Mataji Sahib kaur who put the sugar pellets in the amrit bhatta....and one more thing.......if we think we are above women in anyway we aren't really following guruji's teachings at all.....we are just frontin (translates to...fooling ourselves).....anyways sorry if my posts is not too clear.....im in school and i gotta work in a bit......but great post sis....Sikhi is a wonderful way of life.......tell ur friends that cuz its trueeeeee :e:

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vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I didn't want to sound all Talibanistic and militant about this issue but it seems that I have. When I wrote that post I didn’t want to put down babbian one bit.

Dassan Daas and Gurpreet Singh, what I wrote was based on actual research and on bani. We can all agree on bani being supreme. Right? If so, then bani/rehitnammai should be the ultimate decider of this women’s equality debate. It’s surprising to know that gurbani makes absolutely no direct mention of equality for women. That sloak in Assa Dee Vaar DOES NOT say that women are equal. It just says that why call a women bad whom you befriend and who bring you into this world and from whom kings and great men are born.

You guys should read the meanings in a tika or even sikhitothemax. I just read the sikhitothemax translation, there is no hint of equality on there.

But I don’t think I said anywhere in my post that bibbian are inferior to singhs, as Bhain Sony Kaur is implying. All I said was that there is no mention of singhs and babbian being equal. Having said that, it’s foolish to think that since gurbani makes no mention of this that women are not equal to men. The only point that I tried to make was that there is no clarity on equality in gurbani and that’s it nothing else.

But I doubt that having bibbian in the panj will solve all the equality problems facing women in sikhi. Let’s be logical here. How many granthis do you know that are women? I don’t know any and never seen any in 22 years. The thing is women have not tak

en advantage of what sikhi has to offer. I have always been taught that men or women can do sewa as granthis. This is what respected community members tell people who make documentaries as well. But this is never practiced in the real world.

When the panj are chosen I have never seen babbian get nominated. The truth is that babbian don’t want to be in the panj. However babbian are always there for naam dhridh for female paranayees. No one objects to that.

Because the west makes such a deal about minority and womens rights women sikh women think that they should be equally represented in sikhi too. In the original thread I remember someone questioning the lavvan during anand kaaraj. How could we even think of this??? The Anand Sanskaar was given to us by the gurus!!!!!! Evey historian backs this up. I think its totally idiotic to think that this could be changed. Everyone was up in arms when some gurdwarray were not following the langar hukamnamaa, but when a WSO member’s daughter walked in front of the singh for 2 lavvan everyone stayed quiet. Talk about double standards.

On a side note, I have never read about or heard of any pratan bibi that did kirtan sewa anywhere before the 20th century. The first known bibi-kirtaneeaya were the ones that did kirtan with Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh, at least from what I know. All the kirtaneeay of pratun times were singhs. Singhs like Bhai Mardana, Bhai Sata, Bhai Balwand, Bhai Dya Singh etc. If someone knows of someone please let us know. Singhs have always done kirtan at darbaar sahib since its inception. Now this maryada is going to be broken by Jagir Kaur.

Darbbar Sahib has certain maryada for doing everything, which have been followed for 400 years. Maryada like singing basant raag shabads in the spring till holla mahlla, and only the singh sahib sitting down and doing chaur, 5 rumallay during sukhassan, the timing of first parkash etc. Singhs doing kirtan has also become maryada. We have already lost so muc

h over the years in terms of the pratan maryada: like the use stringed instruments in kirtan and kirtan sung in true raags. The tradition of Singhs doing kirtan is also pratun and this should not be tempered with. If this is tempered then 10 years from now someone will come along and change other vital parts of the maryada.

Lastly, however much connected and united it is because of the rahit maryada and amrit. If you take these two factors out of the equation, a sikh will have no significance whatsoever. Trying to chip away at the tried and tested 3-400 year old maryada is not wise...

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

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Davinder Singh veerji,

I cant type a big essay like you have done but i would like to make a point across..

WHO IS A SIKH !? Men = SIkh ... right ?

WOMEN = Sikh right ?? SOOOOOO ... MEN = WOMEN ... SIMPLEEEE !!! :nihungsmile:

If you would rather think like that think. I do believe that guru nanak dev ji through to guru gobind singh ji have said that men ARE equal to women and women ARE equal to men. Gurbani doesnt cover many aspects, we still got debates about certain controversial issues, and now you just brought up another one.

if i said anything wrong veer, forgive me,

Daas,

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gurupyari sadh sangat jee

vaaheguroo jee kaa khaalsaa

vaaheguroo jee kee fatheh!!

you know me personally davinder singh veerjee (its kulpreet singh here)... i don't practice reht so i don't have very much influence or authority to speak on this topic.

i would just like to understand one thing.

isn't there a difference between "maryada" and "aadath" ?

in english you might translate maryada into a respected, honoured religious tradition and set of expected guidelines for conduct

you might translate aadath as a habit.

habits or aadaths can be good or bad. you can have a good habit of brushing your teeth or a bad habit of not brushing your teeth.

however gurmat maryada can never be bad. it is always good.

sometimes, some religions have "maryada" that was flawed from the start. however, gurmat maryada has always been correct as our guru sahibs are the ones who started it.

i think we need to differentiate what is maryada and what is our panth's habit (good or bad).

habits can be changed, maryada shouldn't.

i think it is our panth's legendary tradition, or maryada, of khande-ke-pahul. of punj pyare. of dastaar. of keertan. of katha.

i think it is our panth's habit, formed after many years, of singhs doing all of the above mentioned things.

this is not a maryada, it is a habit. it happened because of the times and the circumstances, not because it was "holy" and "puneet" and "pavitar."

singhs did most of the battles, keertan, katha, because throughout our history mostly the man is head of the household, and the man joins religion firs

t, then the family follows.

that is starting to change. now, many times the wife brings the whole family into sikhi. many times the children bring the parents into sikhi.

guru amar das ji established the manjis for doing parchar, and there were also women who did parchar in this group.

while guru nanak sahib was travelling on the "udasia," mata sulakhni ji was the head parcharak at their home village

mata khivi ji was the head of the langar

from guru ram das jee until guru tegh bahadur jee the gurgadhee was in the sodhi clan because of the ardas of a woman - bibi bhani ji

when guru nanak sahib told guru angad sahib to go and do bhagti, and all of the gursikhs requested baba buddha jee to find him, he was staying in a hut at the house of a holy sikh woman

the first sikh was a woman - bebe nanaki

guru gobind singh sahib and his four sons were all raised by and educated by mata gujjar kaur ji

by the grace of mata sahib kaur ji's avasthaa we are blessed with sweetness in the khalsa

what i am trying to say is women have always played their unique role and nobody said, "this has never happened before, this is the first time, we can't do this. why can't we do this? because it's maryada."

these habits that we have are not maryada, they are "aadathaa(n)" that can be changed.

for example,

the maryada of langar that bhai davinder singh ji has mentioned -

the maryada is eating at an equal level.

the habit is eating on chairs.

we broke the habit, we kept the maryada.

the maryada of doing kirtan at harimandir sahib -

the maryada is amritdhari gursikhs should do kirtan

the habit is only singhs should do it.

we can keep the maryada but break the habit.

sometimes we become "used" to things and they seem like maryada.

we need to remember "thath gurmat" and "sresht dharam" instead of associating ourselves to our habits.

i agree, that if the guru kh

alsa panth passed a sarbat khalsa gurmatta on this issue, we must listen. but until then, we should stick to maryada as taught by the guru sahibaan, and in the bani of guru gobind singh ji, the vaars of bhai gurdas ji and bhai nand lal singh ji, and all of the hukamnamas. we should also listen to the directives of the sarbat khalsa, such as the sarbat khalsa meeting in 1986.

since 1986 there has been no sarbat khalsa hukam passed, and until the next sarbat khalsa, we should not lose our sleep and our friends over these issues.

there are more fragile things to take care of - for example i talk alot but i don't take care of my jeevan. that story of the man whose guru is teaching him concentration is ideal. the guru instructs the sikh to walk all the way through the city with a candle in his hand, and not let the candle flame be blown out. meanwhile a guard will walk behind the sikh with a sword. if the flame blows out, off with the sikh's head. cautious of death and focused on the flame, the man walks through the city without caring for its distractions. he is more worried about his flame. i need to take care of this fragile thing before i try to do anything else..

"prithmai man parbodhai apnaa

paachai avar reejhaavai"

i'm not even started on the first part of this shabad. i haven't even started cleaning my mind.

i don't know about eveyrbody else but whoever is in my situation should not argue about these things and get angry and upset.

guru sahib will solve these issues for us when we stop trying to solve them for guru sahib. guru sahib will clean the rest of the world when we clean ourselves. guru sahib will bring ekta in the panth when we take dubda out of our minds.

please forgive my mistakes

vaaheguroo jee kaa khaalsaa

vaaheguroo jee kee fatheh!!!

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also, davinder singh, ur points on harmandir sahib maryada are flawed.. before anyone was allowed to do keertan, ie non sikhs, like muslim raagis etc..

but now only amritdhari singhs are.. before that it was different..

you have not done thorough enough research into this.

a few simple points can refute what you have said, please see what i and sony have said before.

also..

I have never seen babbian get nominated

I have seen bibia nominated before and I have seen bibia in panj before. It is not unheard of. The problem is that today a lot of bibia do not follow enough rehat as compared to men. Those that do do not want to start fights, thats why they dont say antyhing, but when they are nominated nobody goes against it. I know of quite a few bibia with a much high avastha than me and I have seen them do sevas with panj.

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Agree with mkhalsa. I don't think that you're opening your mind up to the bigger and deeper meaning from the salok. The point of it, is that women should not be treated badly, and if that's true, what other treatment is there? Because to truly not treat anyone bad, you have to regard them either as equals, or they have to be better than you. There is not middle ground, because there's only two choices after not treating them bad.

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