A woman's point of view....

[sukhnidhaan]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

WHO IS A SIKH !? Men = SIkh ... right ?

WOMEN = Sikh right ?? SOOOOOO ... MEN = WOMEN ... SIMPLEEEE !!!

I love that equation...

...think i betta go bak to skool + show it to my maths teacha to get it checked = play more classical music when studying!

(VISUAL ILLUSION

CLASSICAL MUSIC)

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Guest Sony]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

--

gurmuiK eyk idRsit kir dyKhu Git Git joiq smoeI jIau ]2]

guramukh eaek dhrisatt kar dhaekhahu ghatt ghatt joth samoee jeeo ||2||

As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

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Nanak, none is high and none is low. (Guru I, JAPJI)

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Only fools and idiots, Try to supress others. (Guru I, BASANT RAG)

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gur isKw ieko ipAwru gur imqw puqw BweIAw ]

gur sikhaa eiko piaar gur mithaa puthaa bhaaeeaa ||

The Guru loves all of His Gursikhs equally well, like friends, children and siblings.

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eyk idRsit eyko kir dyiKAw BIiKAw Bwie sbid iqRpqwsY ]1] rhwau ]

eaek dhrisatt eaeko kar dhaekhiaa bheekhiaa bhaae sabadh thripathaasai ||1|| rehaao||

He looks impartially, equally upon all. He receives the charity of the Lord's Love, and the Word of the Shabad, and so he is satisfied. ||1||Pause||

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rhY ggn puir idRsit smYsir Anhq sbid rMgIxw ]2]

rehai gagan pur dhrisatt samaisar anehath sabadh ra(n)geenaa ||2||

He abides in the Tenth Gate, and looks equally upon all; He is imbued with the unstruck sound current of the Shabad. ||2||

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Veerji, has guru ji not said everyone is equal? if everyone is equal, do woman not come under the heading... "everyone"?

QUOTE

--QuoteEBegin-->But I don’t think I said anywhere in my post that bibbian are inferior to singhs, as Bhain Sony Kaur is implying. All I said was that there is no mention of singhs and babbian being equal. Having said that, it’s foolish to think that since gurbani makes no mention of this that women are not equal to men. The only point that I tried to make was that there is no clarity on equality in gurbani and that’s it nothing else. I'm not sure what ur saying here, that woman are not superiour, but are not equal? You know in the end Bhain Jee simmal tree is right... there are more fragile things to take care of - for example i talk alot but i don't take care of my jeevan. that story of the man whose guru is teaching him concentration is ideal. the guru instructs the sikh to walk all the way through the city with a candle in his hand, and not let the candle flame be blown out. meanwhile a guard will walk behind the sikh with a sword. if the flame blows out, off with the sikh's head. cautious of death and focused on the flame, the man walks through the city without caring for its distractions. he is more worried about his flame. i need to take care of this fragile thing before i try to do anything else.. "prithmai man parbodhai apnaa paachai avar reejhaavai" i'm not even started on the first part of this shabad. i haven't even started cleaning my mind. i don't know about eveyrbody else but whoever is in my situation should not argue about these things and get angry and upset. guru sahib will solve these issues for us when we stop trying to solve them for guru sahib. guru sahib will clean the rest of the world when we clean ourselves. guru sahib will bring ekta in the panth when we take dubda out of our minds. There are a lot of other important things to take care of first. I guess I was at fault that I should not have posted anything like that, until I have followed all of Guru Ji's teachings myself , which I have not even started to understand yet. So pul chuk maaf sangat jee.. as you go on in life you learn.... This is one good thing about this forum, its the sangat that helps bring you back to Guru Ji, Bhain Jee simmal tree, what you said here on that post really hit home, and for that I would like to thank you pul chuk maaf Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Guest Sony]

Fateh......... Im so sorry simmal tree veerji.... someone just told me my error.

i hope u can forgive me :cool: @ :umm:

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Davinder Singh Ji, not to gang up on you (cause we are... :e: ) but your point on Gurbani and Gurmat is exactly correct. It should be the precedent of our current behavior.

Now, examine Gurbani. You will first notice that nowhere in Gurbani is the male of female person mentioned or differentiated, as Daasan Daas Sahib has told. The word Sikh is used only, not with the attachment of male or female. When the issue of male and female is brought up, Guru Sahib says that ALL humans are women and the Almighty is the man. The Gurmukhs are those women who stand adoringly pining for the Darshan of their husband Almighty, while the Manmukhs are those women who turn away from their true love in search for materialistic love. That is the view of Gurbani.

Gurmat has also been laid out to you by various members here. Guru Sahiban distributed the responsibilities of Sikh parchar to men and women. Women are given the same Amrit as the men with the same instructions and Kakkars. In this, the equality is present. When Guru Sahib asked his Sangat for a head, he did not say "let a man give me a head", he said "I need a head". Therefore, Sikhs WHO HAPPENED TO BE ALL MALES got up and women did not. But he asked his Sikhs, not men only. History also details the exploits of Sikh women as equally daring to men, in which they engaged in combat with their brother Sikhs and fought just as bravely. The silent warfare of women who had their children hacked to pieces and wore them as garlands is a sacrifice that still holds

little parallel in history.

With all this history, Gurmat and Gurbani, how can we say that women are not equal to men? Davinder Singh Ji, you asked where Gurbani and Gurmat say that women should be equal, I ask where does it say that women should not be equal to men? I would be interested to know if you can find a single directive/hukamnama from the Guru Sahiban that instruct women to do something and not men, or vice versa. Guru Sahib always addressed his Sikhs, never his male and female Sikhs.

Again, Bhai Devinder Singh Ji, please do not take offense to this post...it is one of discussion, not provocation.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

[DAVINDERSINGH]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

This post was meant to be posted right after Dassan Dass Jee, But I don’t have time to write and post it all then, so I'm posting it now…

I dont think I wrote anything about women being lower than men. Nor do I think I wrote anything against bibbian not being equal. I was just trying to say that this issue of women being equal has never been raised and there is no mention of this anywhere in gurbani. I myself don't believe in this kind of thinking. Amrit is the great equalizer, whoever come to the fold of guru sahib’s Sikhi is protected and surkhroah in this life and the next. And this holds true for bibbian, as well as for people coming from “lower” castes.

Again I haven’t said that bibbian are lower then men in any way. But just made a factual statement based on gurbani. I adamantly believe that bibbian should have equal rights because they deserve them, as Sikh.

Kulpreet Singh I agree with your first point about Maryada fully. The second one, I think is weak, because Maryada is an aaddat(habit) too. How does Maryada start off? From thing X being done once. Then repeted a second time, then a third then again…….. When something is done enough times it’s accepted and becomes Maryada. All maryada are a result of an aaddat done many times. Maryada is Maryada because it is the right way to do something.

When determining if something is maryada or not we should look at the various texts that we have and of course gurbani and other banis. Having 5 singhs in amritsanchaar i

s mentioned in all historical texts, whereas there is nothing about bibbian. I am sure non sikh writers show this as well. There is no damage done to bibis’ equality if they are not represented in an amritsanchaar. And there is nothing gained in terms of equality if bibbian are in one. So why break the old tradition(maryada).

Now reading Manjot Singh’s post, I remember that a singh from Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh’s time telling me once about an incident at a village in Rajasthan. He said that after the Jatha had spent a few days at a singh’s house in the village, people loved the kirtan so much that they wanted to join the jatha by taking amrit. On the insistence of the Singhs Bhai Sahib decided to take a bibi to comple the panj. Something happened before they were about to start stirring the khanda, and the Jatehdar stopped the amritsanchaar right there and did ardass to ask for forgiveness.

Also when I got naam-dridh in 1992, there were not enough Rehitvaan Singhs in BC at the time and so a bibi was included, to be the granthi, NOT as one of the panj to prepare amrit. So these are the two times I can think of babbian being in amritsanchaar.

We all love Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa, and I remember listening to a tape of his about 6-7 years ago and still remember what he said. He indeed said that then the fateh will have to be changed from khalsa and khalsee. Also he talked about how the saroop of the first 5 payarrai must be maintained at all costs. He was very direct in his wording about this. Maybe someone his this tape, I think it was tape #5* I don’t have that set now but if someone does, let us know.

Most people have a hard time believing that the 5 should be sabat soorat(in complete form, without any disability) and yet this is not followed many times. For guru sahibs bakshash and kala to be there, the whole amritsanchaar smagam must be exactly followed as per panthic maryada.

No Ms514 I don’t take offence to your post. You are right nowhere does gurmat does it say

that women are inferior to men. Your first paragraph is very well put, and I agree with it fully. But I am not saying that Bibbbian cannot do sewa in the panj because they are inferior to men somehow, it was just that Sony Kaur’s line in the initial post about gurbani directly telling us that women and men are equal in sikhi caught my attention.

I have read a few books just on sikh bibbian and don’t recall reading anything about bibbian doing amritsanchaar.

Like Ms514 has said, sikh women were no doubt the most devout and chardikala women the human race has seen, others don’t even come close. No one other than the amritdhari bibbian could have done such astounding sakkai and unparalleled kurbani. Our panth is indeed living off their kamayee. I am not denying any of this; these are facts that will be with us till the end of time.

And about the manjiian, I wasn’t sure if they had been given to bibbian, thank you for clearing that up. And Ms514, when I read your post, the pangati "iesujgmihpurKueykuhYhorsglInwirsbweI]" came to mind so you are right once again.

Whatever we discuss here will not have any impact on the issue in the field for at least a decade. But once we grow up, it will have some meaning.

I'am glad that this has been one of the most civilized and healthy discussions(that i have ever read/been in so far)

SwbwSy!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Mkhalsa]

Also he talked about how the saroop of the first 5 payarrai must be maintained at all costs.

Ok, if you think it should be, then this maryada should be started:

Only 5 people from specific castes stood up as well. Panj Pyare should only be khatri, jatt, water carrier, clothes washer, and barber?

Chumar (shoe maker) or Tarkhan etc cannot be panj. Neither can gorae Sikhs, some white person may have been there, and there definitely were those of Muslim descent, they not be Panj Pyare either.

So thats the maryada you want?

[Khalsa Fauji]

Gurfateh!!

MKhalsa Veer Ji, the Panj Piare we have today are all Amritdhari, they don't have castes that was the point of 1699. They are not selected now on what ancestral caste they belong to but on morality and spirituality.(from damdami taksal rehit, for eg):

"Those who do the seva of Panj Pyare are to be of high morality and spirituality, very disciplined in every aspect of life.

Bhai Choupa Singh ji writes in a Rehatnama that a Sikh should "take Amrit and not partake in any other form of religious initiation. The Sikh is to take initiation from those that are very spiritual and moralistic. The Panj Pyare are not to be one-eyed, bald, lepers, beardless, of bad habits, be thieves or gamblers and not entangled in vice. From those that we get initiated from – we take some of their virtues as this is what they invest in the Amrit, that is why someone of high Sikhi discipline is to be sought to get initiated from." "

Please forgive me if i am wrong.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Gurfateh!!

[Mkhalsa]

MKhalsa Veer Ji, the Panj Piare we have today are all Amritdhari,

Exactly my point!

The panj pyare are amritdhari gursikhs. whatever roop that may come in, does not matter.

[AK-47]

Mr Singh, be careful about who your 'completely disgusted ' about, you may include more names in that list than you first would have considered.

Yes Sant Ji was against bibian in the panj pyareh. Personally sant ji had more gyaan, kamai, budi, akul, pyaar, nimrata, bir ras... everything than me.. so im going to accept their stance on this one.

Thats not saying that women are inferior. Just that the seva of panj pyareh should be by 5 singhs.

If bibain can give birth to warriors, saints and sevadars, then why is it wrong for singhs to give birth to the khalsa?

Again will second the fact that of all the bibian i know that do seva, simran etc i mean REALY do it, not just at programmes etc but like 24 hours a day, they simply are not intrested in being part of the panj pyareh. In fact if you ask them they are disgusted in return at the fact that u could even ask them...

Beyond this, do as you like, personally i would not go pesh or go in front of panj pyareh that were not singhs. But thats mypersonal view. If your going to have a stab at me go for it, doesnt bother me im just being honest.

I must say the following comment 'I have a lot of respect for gursikh singhnian' because if i dnt keep repeating it people belive you think they are low etc, i do have a lot of respect for bibina anyway, but the mohohl people create is that if ur not constantly saying 'rights for women rights for women' you get chopped down.

anyway there you go.

I have repeated in soooo many other threads that singhs have their seva which we are failing at, and bibian have their seva which they are failing at... rather than concentrate on these i

ssues we seek to bother ourselves with issues such as the above.

MOD:REPEATDLY MODS AND ADMIN HAVE SAID HERE NOT TO DISCUSS ON BIBIYAAN TO BE IN PANJ OR NOT, BUT THE DISCUSSION CONTINUES IF THIS HAPPENS THE THREAD WILL AGAIN GET CLOSED PLSS DONOT DISCUSS ABT THIS ISSUE A REQUEST TO GURU PYARE SANGAT.

[Guest Sony]

it was just that Sony Kaur’s line in the initial post about gurbani directly telling us that women and men are equal in sikhi caught my attention.

pul chuk maaf......

Fateh