sikhreality

There are so many articles on that site and people like 'Gadget', 'Southhall Youth' are only picking out one line from Sarbloh Granth to discredit it.

There are articles about the history and the summary of Sarbloh Granth, along with various other translations including the first stanza, and important passages about Khalsa marayda, ideology etc, most of which has never been translated into English before.

I have no faith whatsoever in the Sarbhloh Granth - no1 its called a Puran that is not Sikh

Firstly, do you have faith in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji ? Because you should look at the section of Shastar Naam Mala - its real name as Maharaj writes it is:

ਅਥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਮ ਮਾਲਾ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ॥

Shastra-Nama Mala Purana (the Rosary of the Names of weapons) is now composed

Now this does not mean this composition is from a previous Purana, because the Shastarnaam Mala is a unique composition and is not a translation of a Hindu Shaastar/Puran.

Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji is the same, it is a unique composition, its story is not found in any other Hindu Shaastar or Puran.

no2 they found it like around 100 yrs ago I believe Guru Gobind Singh Ji never mentioned this granth ever

So you think it was found in 1910 ? (that is 100 yrs ago...). If that is true why do scholars even mention Sarbloh Granth in the 1800s ?

and nor do we do tilak and other birpan ki reet things,only have faith in the eternal Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji the ansewer to all the problems

Do you believe in the shabad: Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas ? That shabad is from Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

I guess you are against Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib as well, and are a product of Darshan Ragi and the other Missionaries.

Ok thanks that clears up the confusion. And I wasn't trying to mock this Granth I was just asking a question.

No problem, I was referring to the user, "gadget"

ਪੂਜਾ, ਤਿਲਕ, ਹੋਮ, ਗਾਯਤ੍ਰੀ, ਸੰਧ੍ਯਾ, ਤਰਪਨ ਧਾਰੋ ॥

Conduct worship, [adorn a] Tilak, [practise] Havans, [recite] Gayatri [mantras], worship at the prescribed times, instill these virtues [in your heart].

What does this mean?

I talked to Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji about this passage, Baba ji explained that line explains the different puratan [traditional] ways of sadhana.

- Pooja here refers to Worshiping your Isht Guru

- a Tilak is the nishani [symbol] of someone who does Bhajan [worship] of Vahiguru.

- Havans refers to in the Khalsa langar marayda, as in for langar to be cooked there needs fire, and that form of fire provides for the poor, so it dharamik. Havans have also been done by Khalsa Warriors in the past like Baba Deep Singh Ji. Naveen Panth Prakash says about Baba Deep Singh:

ਸੁਨਿ ਬੇਅਦਬੀ ਬਹੁ ਗੁਰੁਦ੍ਵਾਰੈਂ ।ਚੰਡੀ ਚਢੀ ਤਾਂਹਿ ਅਤਿ ਭਾਰੈਂ ।੯।

When hearing about the disrespect at the Gurdrawa [Harimandar], The spirit of Chandi arose within him.

ਸੁਨਿ ਸਿੰਘ ਪਾਠ ਅਖੰਡ ਕਰਾਯੋ । ਹਮਨ ਕਰਯੋ ਕੰਗਨਾ ਬੰਧਵਾਯੋ ।

Baba Ji organized an Akhand Paat and completed a Havan [before heading towards the battle] and tied a wedding bracelet around his wrist [a preparation for martyrdom as death is seen as a merging with their beloved Lord]

- Gayatri mantra here for the Khalsa is this shabad:

ਗੁਬਿੰਦੇ ॥ ਮੁਕੰਦੇ ॥ ਉਦਾਰੇ ॥ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥੯੪॥

ਹਰੀਅੰ ॥ ਕਰੀਅੰ ॥ ਨ੍ਰਿਨਾਮੇ ॥ ਅਕਾਮੇ ॥੯੫॥

- Sandhya here means worshipping at the proscribed times, as in Nitnem is performed at Amritvela, Rehraas in the evening, and Kirtan Sohila before sleep etc.

We must remind ourselves that this is the scripture of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji , and don't be so quick to mock it.

If you do not believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji that is fine, it's your karam.

If you do believe in it, please provide a different arth [meaning] if I have done an incorrect translation.

A new article has been posted which deals with the teachings given to the Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

http://manglacharan.com/updesh.html

thank you

I will be uploading another shabad of Sri Sarbloh Granth translated explaining Marayda for Sikh, today or tomorrow.

Sorry for not posting more information on the other thread about Sarbloh Granth, was busy creating the site. I hope the site answers any questions you have about Sarbloh Granth.

www.Manglacharan.com

Please visit to learn more about Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib [sri Manglacharan Granth].

WJKK WJKF

Well I always knew about Sri Dasam Granth.

But now I have started to hear about other Granths or writings by our Guru Jis.

Can anyone please give me a list of all these Granths/ Writings and some Info about them.

And if possible an online link to some of them? (preferably in English since I'm not good at reading Punjabi yet!)

WJKK WJKF

Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote various Granths.

- Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

- Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji

there are various writing that are not even either of the above published versions, most noteably:

- Ugardanthi [appears in some old Saroops of Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib]

- Gobind Gita

For information on Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji please visit www.sikh-reality.blogspot.com

There are various links on that site to view information on Sarbloh Granth.

Jvala singh ji

No. He said that Hindus considered Durga as shakti. Here you are not being honest and twisting things.Sikhs are not Hindus as Baba ji said that sikhs consider kirpan as shakti of waheguru.

Did you even listen to the Katha? Please listen again, maybe I will transcribe it for you, you seem to be only hearing what you want. Baba Inderjit Singh Ji also noted how Mata Sahib Devan [Kaur] was an avatar of Chandi, I am sure you missed that again because it doesn't follow in with your beliefs. BTW that is a common belief within the Nihung Singhs.

In that " ath devi ji ki ustat" Maharaj has defined devi as akal purakh and not any deity.

That is your interpretation and many others might agree, which is fine. I also agree, although I see it in a different way, I believe, as I have been taught, that Nirguna Vahiguru created Shakti, and from that same Shakti a form was created who we call Chandi/Durga etc. We are not far off in interpretation.

Here either you are not aware of Dasam Granth or you are making up false stories. The passaage you have given is from Krishna avtar. Durga has no business to be there in krishna avtar as it is avatr of vishnu.They are absolutley different belief systems.

It is not translation of purana in toto. Read purana before writing this.I have gone through puranas to go to roots. Maharaj has left out all pasages of Purana that are in praise of Durga. This is applicable to Chandi charitras.

Krishna avtar is from Bhagvat Purana tenth chapter. It is also not transaltion in toto.Major part of krishna avatar is "War management" where kharag singh fights with Krishna and puts him down under his foot by pulling from his hair. That whole section is not from purana.It is written new by Guru sahib and forms major part of krishna avtar. Please do not make false stories.

I do not believe in that philosophy that Maharaj just translated Purans without believing in them, I mentioned that stream of thought as it was held by Kulbir Singh Ji of Tapoban Sahib. Do not misquote me.

I was showing the different streams of thought, and provided my own please read it over again. Look at this link here, http://gurmatbibek.c...orum/read.php?3,4271 Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji says that this is most probably a translated passage from a Puran and not Gurmat. However I disagree with it not being Gurmat.

I have provided my own personal view and Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji's view on Devi/Bhagauti/Chandi. I have now no reason to continue this conversation. Either read the blog and take the good out of it, or don't read it, its your loss [or gain if you think I am Hinduvta/RSS].

Jvala singh ji

I have a question for you from other thread.

Baba Inderjit singh is very clear in his katha that Bhagauti is a kirpan for sikhs.

Baba Ji said that Bhagauti without form is Shakti and when it is a form it is a Kirpan. But also he said that another form of Bhagauti is Durga/Chandi.

Baba Ji also said Durga/Chandi and Kirpan are both forms of Shakti.

Then why did you write the bani from Krishna avtar with a special mention

" Ath devi ji i ustat".

Have you read Dasam Granth sahib.There are many odes like this titled as

" Devi ji ki ustat". But that ustat is of akal purakh and not any physical entity.

Why did I write the bani Ath Devi Ju Ki Ustat? I just put what Maharaj wrote, do you want me to change what Maharaj wrote and put Ath Akaal Ju Ki Ustat? Lets not do the same mistake Ram Rai did.

What was the prupose of laying emphasis on "Devi ji ki ustat"

and what do you infer by term Devi in above?

I do not infer anything, I post what I find interesting and what appeals to me. The photograph of an old manuscript which has a drawing of Devi and then a passage from Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which praises Devi, which is Akaal Purkh Ji's Shakti, as per the teachings of Nihung Singhs, Nirmalae, Udasis and other Sampradayas. This is also the teaching that has been given to me by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji.

You guys can go ahead and re-write Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib to make it appealing to others by putting Akaal instead of Devi, or we can just destroy the sigma attached to the word Devi. If we destroy the stigma attached to the word, and understand how Devi is Shakti of Akaal, then the Anti-Dasam Granth believers will lose their ammunition towards Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Or we can believe that sure it praises Devi , but this is a translation of a Puran and therefore not per Gurmat, Maharaj was just translating a Puran. But do you honestly think that Maharaj would write down for his beloved followers writings which He does not subscribe to? Don't you think that would be confusing for the Khalsa? Would Maharaj write lies/falsehood ?

End of the day, you can insult me, call me a Neo-Nang, Hindu Snantani, RSS, Nirmala Pandit, Traitor of the Panth and whatever other cliche terms you have for someone with a different mindset, but please leave out the Mahapurkhs from puratan sampradyas from your remarks.

Namaksaar to the Beloved Sikhs of the Guru who uphold the traditional sidhaant.

Here is the audio link for the file:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3373335/Sarbloh%20Granth%20-%20Malaar%20Svaiye.mp3

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2010/05/akal-akal-akal-sri-sarbloh-granth.html

Passage from Sarbloh Granth translated, along with an audio of the recitation by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji.

Just a question for people to answer...

Is Mahapurkh Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji who is a student of both Mahapursh Nihung Baba Karam Singh Rakba vale [Jathedar of Damdama Sahib Rakba before Nihung Lehna Singh, who was before Nihung Baba Joginder Singh Rakba vale], and student of Sant Giani Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindran Vale a Neo-Nihung ?? or is he an RSS?

For those who are wondering what Bhagauti is and what is the role of Chandi is in the panth, please listen to this katha.

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2010/01/bhagauti-astotar-paat-is-very-rare.html

Bhai Kulbir Singh has beautifully explained the real meaning of Bhagauti and Shakti. This is 100% inline with what other Panthic scholars have written on this same subject, namely in the works: Bhai Vir Singh Ji's "ਦੇਵੀ ਪੂਜਨ ਪੜਤਾਲ" Giani Ditt Singh's (Singh Sabha Lehar Founder) "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ"

Giani Manna Singh "ਦਸਮ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਰਾ ਸਰਵੇਖਣ" (published by Bhai Veer Singh Sahit Sadan)

Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha's "ਭਗੌਤੀ (ਭਗਉਤੀ)" and "ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੈ" and "ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ"

Giani Harbans Singh Ji's "ਭਗਉਤੀ ਪਦ ਬਾਰੇ ਨਿਰਣਯ"

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's "ਭਗਉਤੀ ਪਦ ਦਾ ਤੱਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਿਰਣਾ"

The above scholars ALL agreed that Bhagauti is the power (shakti) of Akal Purakh, ie: NAAM, not some eight or ten armed deity.

Despite this clarity, psuedo-Nihangs and pro-Sanatani Nirmala and Udassee minded individuals have intentionally tried to bombard Hindu symbolism and ritualism in Sikhism.

Sadly, sikhreality (Jwala Singh) have seemed to jumped on this bandwagon also.

Firstly, "I" do not say anything, I merely post real old historical documentation rather than neo-scholars.

Secondly, even in my posts, they do not disagree with the concept that Bhagauti = Shakti/Maya. If so, please show me where.

Thirdly, the above "scholars' that you mentioned have all one thing in common, they were present during the Gurdrawa Reform Movement and British Rule, and all wanted to seperate themselves and run as far away from concepts that related to Hinduism as much as possible.

The images posted of Hindu devi devtaas on his blog in connection to Sri Dasam Bani are sending a mixed message and adding add fuel to the fire created by the anti-Panthic elements that try to link Sri Dasam Granth to Hinduism.

All I posted was a photograph of an old hand written saroop of Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I was hoping some people [which they did] would appreciate having darshan of such an absolutely beautiful Saroop. Just like my blog, I try not post my opinion about how to interpret the posting, or my personal beliefs in Sikhi.

With the blessings of Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji I just post translations of old Granths, be it Gurbani from Sri Sarbloh Granth or historical documentation from historical Granths. However people interpret them that is fine.

ਆਪੁ ਆਪਨੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੈ ਜੇਤੀ ॥ ਬਰਨਤ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਤੁਹਿ ਤੇਤੀ ॥

Each person, according to his understanding, gives Your description disparately.

ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰਯੋਪਖਯਾਨ Charitropakhyaan

I am not here to preach what I believe Sikhi is, I'm just uploading whatever I find interesting while in my personal reading time.

Jwala Singh blog then states:

Bhai Jwala Singh should read Bhai Vir Singh Ji's "ਦੇਵੀ ਪੂਜਨ ਪੜਤਾਲ" and Giani Ditt Singh's "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ", which makes it clear that NO DEVI appeared in front of Guru Gobind Singh Ji before the Baiaskhi 1699. Instead, Guru Gobind Singh Ji showed the Brahmin pandits who had been performing havan for years, praying for Durga to appear, that the Sri Sahib - Kirpan - was the real Chandi

ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੇਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ ਕਰੇ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਸੁਭਟ ਹਾਥ ਸੋਹੀ ॥ and ਨਮੋ ਤੇਗ ਤਰਵਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਖੱਗ ਖੰਡਾ ॥ ਮਹਾਂ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਰੂਪਾ ਬਿਰੂਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡਾ ॥ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ)

Guru Granth Sahib Ji makes is clear that: ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਸਰਗੁਨੁ ਭੀ ਓਹੀ ॥ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਮੋਹੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੇ ਚਰਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਏ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

You have quoted Bhagauti Astotar, please listen to Baba Ji's katha on Bhagauti Astotar on my blog, if you object to what Baba Ji says then please post and explain why.

GPS Ji,

There are a lot of people out there blindly following neo-Nihang propaganda that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a devi upashak, as indicated on Jvala Singh's blog.

Jvala Singh stated in the thread Beautiful Old Manscript Of Dasam Granth, that all puratan Granths indicate this. I highly doubt Jvala Singh has read the works of the scholars mentioned in my previous post including Bhai Vir Singh Ji's "Devi Pujan Parrtal" in which he references Rattan Singh Bhangu, Giani Gian Singh Ji and others on this very matter.

You have not listened to the katha posted on www.sikh-reality.blogspot.com under the Bhagauti Astotar section, yet you continue to put words in my mouth.

I have read the works of Bhai Vir Singh and Bhai Bishan Singh [Durga Prabodh] and "Babu" Teja Singh Bhasauria [bhagauti Prabodh], in fact I have all these at home. To be honest they did not convince me from away what I learnt from Baba Giani Inderjit Singh Ji and read from all old Sikh literature from 1700-1800s.

To be honest I do not think we are that far off from what we believe, please listen to the katha before we continue this discussion.

btw... Bhai Vir Singh was notorious for changing editions of Panth Prakash [Naveen and Pracheen] and Suraj Prakash to suit what he thought was Gurmat [at that time].....

Jvala Singh's blog raises a lot of questions.

Does Jvala Singh also agree with the Niddar UK Nang group's philosophy?

I put faith in how what Mahapurkh Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji has instructed me along with the endless list of historical granths, all held in high esteem by Sikh Panth, most noteably, Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, Naveen Panth Prakash, Mehima Prakash Granth and many more have told us. BTW all of those are written in the 1700s and 1800s, they are not new sources of information like Bhai Randhir Singh's (AKJ) books....

His blog claims that a Devi appeared before Guru Gobind Singh Ji and she gave Guru Sahib a Kirpan for the creation of Khalsa.

The only thing on the blog that mentions that is Khalsa Dharam Shaastar written by Avatar Singh Vahiria. You can view that here. http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2010/02/khalsa-dharam-shaastar.html

If you are looking for other historical sources that talk about, please view Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, Naveen Panth Prakash, Mehima Prakash Granth, Rehatnamas and many more granths which talk about the same thing.

Mahapurkh Baba Inderjit Singh Ji also instructed me the same that this event happened.

Can Jvala Singh tell who this Devi was according his sources, and why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji need her help?

I will quote from Khalsa Dharam Shaastar, what you make of it will be up to you...

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਆਪ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਸਮਰਥ ਸਨ ਦੇਵੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਿਨਾ ਵੀ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਾਮ ਕਰਕੇ ਛੇਵੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਅਤੇ ਦਸਵੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਨੇ ਜੁੱਧ ਜੀਤੇ ਅਪਣੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇ ਅਰਾਧਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀ ਸੀ ਪਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਇ ਕਰ ਉਸਦਾ ਪੰਥ ਦੀ ਇਮਾਰਤ ਵਿਚ ਗੱਚ ਲਾਣਾ ਸੀ ਸੋ ਉਹ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਜਗਮਾਨੀ ਕੈਸੀ ਹੇ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਇਸ ਬਚਨ ਤੋ ਸਿੱਧ ਹੈ:

Sri Guru Ji Maharaj, the mighty one possessing all powers, went to war without manifesting the Devi Bhagvati, the 6th King and 10th King went to war and attained victory, for themselves they had no need to manifest the Devi through rememberance, however, when the Khalsa of Akal Purkh was created the Shakti of Akal Purkh, which is Bhagvati, Her power was manifested for the foundations of the Panth which would be solid and powerful [talking about the Rudhra/Bir Ras that Her Shakti brings]. So the shakti of Akal Purkh is Bhagvati, Bhavani, Jagmani. The Great King [Guru Gobind Singh Ji]'s words will add clarification:

Furthermore my blog is not my own personal opinion, it is just old historical sources (which sadly no one bothers to read anymore) talking and explaining about Sikhi.

The original poster had given the below mentioned passage from chandi charitra. He calls it devi ji ki ustat.

That is sheer ignorance. He needs to read it carefully and not pick at random some verses.

Below is given those verses.It is Eulogy of God and not any devi of Hinduism or Durga.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਿੰਧ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜੋ ਕਛੁ ਮੋ ਪਰਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

क्रिपा सिंध तुमरी क्रिपा जो कछु मो परि होइ ॥

O Ocean of Mercy, if Thy Grace is bestowed upon me:

ਰਚੋ ਚੰਡਿਕਾ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਸੁਭ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥

रचो चंडिका की कथा बाणी सुभ सभ होइ ॥२॥

I may compose the story of Chandika and my poetry be all good.2.

ਜੋਤ ਜਗਮਗੈ ਜਗਤਿ ਮੈ ਚੰਡ ਚਮੁੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡ ॥

जोत जगमगै जगति मै चंड चमुंड प्रचंड ॥

Thy light is shining in the world, O Powerful Chand-Chamunda!

ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡਨ ਦੰਡਨਿ ਅਸੁਰ ਮੰਡਨ ਭੁਇ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ॥੩॥

भुज दंडन दंडनि असुर मंडन भुइ नव खंड ॥३॥

Thou art the Punisher of the demons with Thy strong arms and art the Creator of the nine regions.3.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥

स्वैया ॥

SWAYYA

ਤਾਰਨ ਲੋਕ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਭੂਮਹਿ ਦੈਤ ਸੰਘਾਰਨ ਚੰਡਿ ਤੁਹੀ ਹੈ ॥

तारन लोक उधारन भूमहि दैत संघारन चंडि तुही है ॥

It is you who is creator of chandi, who ferries across the people; Thou art the redeemer of the earth and destroyer of the demons.

ਕਾਰਨ ਈਸ ਕਲਾ ਕਮਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਅਦ੍ਰਸੁਤਾ ਜਹ ਦੇਖੇ ਉਹੀ ਹੈ ॥

कारन ईस कला कमला हरि अद्रसुता जह देखे उही है ॥

Thou art the cause of the Shakti of Shiva, Lakshmi of Vishnu and Parvati, the daughter of Himavan, wherever we see, Thou art there.

ਤਾਮਸਤਾ ਮਮਤਾ ਨਮਤਾ ਕਵਿਤਾ ਕਵਿ ਕੇ ਮਨ ਮਧਿ ਗੁਹੀ ਹੈ ॥

तामसता ममता नमता कविता कवि के मन मधि गुही है ॥

Thou art Tams, the quality of morbidity, mineness and modesty; Thou art poetry, latent in the mind of the poet.

ਕੀਨੋ ਹੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਲੋਹ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਪਾਰਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਾਇ ਛੁਹੀ ਹੈ ॥੪॥

कीनो है कंचन लोह जगत्र मै पारस मूरति जाइ छुही है ॥४॥

Thou art the philosopher`s stone in the world, which transforms the iron into gold that it touches.4.

Chandi charitra ukti bilas

Let us analyse what is written in Dasam Granth sahib and not follow blindly what is written on someone's blog.

Excuse me, but I did not just put the title "Devi Ju Ki Ustat", but Maharaj himself wrote it.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=645&english=t&id=89846

There is the link to the post that I put up, if you have an issue with Gurbani, talk to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Jwala Singh, u need to be careful as your last few posts are promoting hindu matt. U need to do vichar with some scholar like Bhai Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba before posting such stuff.

Typical response.

Did you even listen to the katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji?

The subject of this Pauri is not Ramayana or Raam Chandar but using their example, Bhai Sahib is proving the Gurmat principle that one gets praised or condemned based on one's Karma. If we do good Karma, we would get praised and if we do bad Karma, we would get condemned and slandered. In Siri Asa kee Vaar there is a Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਜੇਹਾ ਘਾਲੇ ਘਾਲਣਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੋ ਨਾਉ ਪਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

(The kind of deed a person does, so the reputation of such person spreads)

This Pauri gives the example of Ravan and Raam who fought a battle. Ravan committed a bad act and incurred a black stain (ਕਾਲਾ ਟਿਕਾ) by taking away someone else's woman (ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਹਰਣਾ). Till this day people remember his bad deed. On the other hand Rama followed Dharma and till this day his deeds in form of Ramayana are remembered and many people treat Ramayana as a source of liberation or salvation.

This subject of this Pauri is not Rama or Ravana or Ramayana but Bhai Gurdaas jee is making the point that one's reputation depends on one's deeds.

Interesting interpretation.

One question though, how do you translate, "Ram Chand Nirmal Purkh". Every traditional old school of thought, Sikh Sampradays, recognize or atleast understand that Ram was a Gurmukh. From Nihung Singhs, to Nirmala Sikhs, to Bhindran Taksal and other Taksals.

Like Giani Ji said, if you do not have Bharosa [faith] in Gurbani then all is lost.

Modern day people have a way of twisting and interpreting Gurbani anyway possible just to suit them, this is a tactic that has been mastered by Anti-Dasam Granth people, they twist words, meanings around very cleverly to oppose traditional Sikh thought.

Jwala Singh, I do not want to go into the history or authenticity of present day Nihang, Nirmala Organizations. So stop using this tactic to prove your point.

http://www.sridasam....ction=Page&p=99

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥

जिते अउलीआ अमबीआ होइ बीते ॥ तितिओ काल जीता न ते काल जीते ॥

All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him).

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥

जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

If Ram was a Gurmukh, He would not have been destroyed by the Mighty Kaal. Basically, Ram did some good things and some not so good things and in the end had to face Dharam Rai. Regarding the tukk "raam chand nirmal purakkh", this means that due to the good action of Ram (of fighting Ravana for his wife), so many people consider him nirmal purakh, worship him and consider ramayana as a source of salvation.

If we go by your logic, then Ramayana shud be considered as a source of salvation, then what was the need of Guru Nanak Dev jee to come to this earth when Ramayana was already there. Gurbani says " gur bin ghor andhaar".

Shud present day sikhs start reading Ramayana as it can bring salvation ?????

In reality, this tukk just means that Ramayana and story of Ram is considered by holy by many people and Ram gets lots of praise in this world whereas Ravan gets bad name to this day for stealing some one else's wife.

The above quotation from Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in Bachittar Natak, and is it doing Ustat of Kaal. It is showing that eventually, everything gets consumed by Kaal, and that includes all the Avatars. Everything that is Sargun saroop passes away, even Guru Nanak Dev ji till Guru Gobind Singh Ji were born and passed, because they were Sargun Saroop of Parmeshvar.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ॥

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ॥

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ॥

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ॥

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

<a class="dict" href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%80" onmouseover="ddrivetip('iSarī /i Shri, a world used for respect. 2. Lakshmi. 3. manifestation of beauty, quality, praise, wealth etc.', 250)" ;="" onmouseout="hideddrivetip()">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

Like Baba Ji said in his katha, and the previous Avatars have their place, they were for the previous yugs [ages], but in this age for us Sikhs, we focus on Guru Nanak Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj .

Jwala Singh, u need to be careful as your last few posts are promoting hindu matt. U need to do vichar with some scholar like Bhai Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba before posting such stuff.

Typical response.

Did you even listen to the katha by Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji?

The subject of this Pauri is not Ramayana or Raam Chandar but using their example, Bhai Sahib is proving the Gurmat principle that one gets praised or condemned based on one's Karma. If we do good Karma, we would get praised and if we do bad Karma, we would get condemned and slandered. In Siri Asa kee Vaar there is a Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਜੇਹਾ ਘਾਲੇ ਘਾਲਣਾ ਤੇਵੇਹੋ ਨਾਉ ਪਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

(The kind of deed a person does, so the reputation of such person spreads)

This Pauri gives the example of Ravan and Raam who fought a battle. Ravan committed a bad act and incurred a black stain (ਕਾਲਾ ਟਿਕਾ) by taking away someone else's woman (ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਹਰਣਾ). Till this day people remember his bad deed. On the other hand Rama followed Dharma and till this day his deeds in form of Ramayana are remembered and many people treat Ramayana as a source of liberation or salvation.

This subject of this Pauri is not Rama or Ravana or Ramayana but Bhai Gurdaas jee is making the point that one's reputation depends on one's deeds.

Interesting interpretation.

One question though, how do you translate, "Ram Chand Nirmal Purkh". Every traditional old school of thought, Sikh Sampradays, recognize or atleast understand that Ram was a Gurmukh. From Nihung Singhs, to Nirmala Sikhs, to Bhindran Taksal and other Taksals.

Like Giani Ji said, if you do not have Bharosa [faith] in Gurbani then all is lost.

Modern day people have a way of twisting and interpreting Gurbani anyway possible just to suit them, this is a tactic that has been mastered by Anti-Dasam Granth people, they twist words, meanings around very cleverly to oppose traditional Sikh thought.

does the passage eulogise Khanda then?

No, this passage does not eulogize naam khanda. It is a translation from a hindu purana according to which, the devi is the driving force of the world. In Krishan Avataar there are 3 kinds of passages :

1. Translations

2. Modifications (Editing)

3. New passages ( for example, the kharag singh prasang is a new creation and is not found in hindu puranas).

This passage of devi ustatt is a translation and does not represent Sikh Philosophy.

Basically, in Sri Dasam Granth stories ( Chaubis Avatar stories, charitropakhyan stories, chandi charitar stories) are REWRITTEN to impart moral, martial and bir rass lessons to Sikhs. Whenever an existing story is rewritten, some parts are translated, some parts modified and some new text is added.

Can you tell me when then in Krishnavatar, in the Kharag Singh section, which Maharaj himself created, is there updesh about doing simran on Chandi so She will help to destroy the enemies.

I am referring to when Krishna speaks to his army saying:

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਹੂੰ ਚੰਡ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਕਰਹੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਜੀਤਨ ਕੋ ਬਰੁ ਦੇਇਗੀ ਅਰਿ ਤਬ ਲੀਜਹੁ ਘਾਇ ॥੧੩੨੫॥

Therefore you should also serve Chandi single-mindedly, which she will bestow the boon of victory and then you will be able to kill the enemy.1325.

ਜਾਗਤ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਜਲ ਥਲ ਰਹੀ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪ ਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਨਿ ਰਹੀ ਠਹਰਾਇ ॥੧੩੨੬॥

He, whose gleaming light pervades in water, on plain and the whole world, the same is preset in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in the form of three modes.1326.

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥

SWAYYA

ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਬਰਤੈ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਅਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਸਭ ਰੂਪਨ ਮੈ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਬਿਮਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ ਕੇ ਕਮਲਾ ਤਨ ਮੈ ॥

He, whose power is present in the whole world and in all forms, whose power is present in Parvati, Vishnu and Lakshsmi,

ਪੁਨਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਗਿਰ ਰੂਖਨ ਮੈ ਸਸਿ ਪੂਖਨ ਮੈ ਮਘਵਾ ਘਨ ਮੈ ॥ ਤੁਮਹੂੰ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਕਲਾ ਜਗ ਮਾਨੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਮਨ ਮੈ ॥੧੩੨੭॥

And whose power is present in the mountain, tree, sun, moon, Indra and clouds also; you have not adored that Bhavani, therefore now meditate on her.1327.

In traditional Sikh Schools of thought this is considered Updesh for the Sikh Soormas. Please read Khalsa Dharam Shaastar for more information about it. It is also taught when learning about Dasam Sri Guru Granth Granth Sahib by Guru ordained Sampradyas, not modern day missionary schools which are influenced by Western concepts of God [who cannot understand the concept of Nirgun and Sargun or Shakta and Shakti].

No where does any Sikh Sampradya translate Khanda as Naam, look at Pandit Narayan Singh Ji's tika of Dasam Guru Granth Sahib, Khanda in Chandi Di vaar, which you quoted, is translated as Maya.

Why in Sarbloh does it say, Sri Maya Ji Sahai, or Sri Maya Ji Ki Ustat. Do you not believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib ?

If you do not have faith in Gurbani then why bother with Sikhi.

"praise of Devi" seem to be an illogical way of seeing it. In gurmat Devi devtas dont hold any importance.

I just used the terms Maharaj used, pleasr read the bani, it says devi ju ki ustat. Is Maharaj wrong for using the term devi? Praise of Devi, which is the title of the post is also the title of the bani.

Veer ji,

How do you view the gurbani that was posted along with the photo ?