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WJKK WJKF! How long will this forum remain online for in a readable & accessible state? It appears susceptible to shut-down. It would be a shame if all the forum's content from over the decades is lost in such an event due to servers hosting this forum shutting-down. This forum, whilst not currently active, remains an important repository of the Sikh religion online. It also is a fundamental aspect of Sikh cyber culture that existed from the early Internet period from the 2000's to 2010's before the domination by big social-media sites that consolidated the community. Thus, have the web-masters of this forum considered archiving this forum's contents before it is lost forever? I can assist you in this by saving the content to the Internet Archive on your behalf. Please let me know your thoughts about such an endeavour and I hope you may consider the possibility of archiving the forum for posterity. Future generations of Sikhs and Sikh researchers will be grateful. Kind regards, Theth Panjabi (you can find me on IG at theth.panjabi and on X/Twitter at ThethPanjabi)

Video on the tale, gurdwara, and manuscript: link As the story goes, during the Vadda Ghallughara genocide against the Sikhs perpetrated by the Afghan Durrani Empire on 5–6 February 1762, not only were Sikh lives lost, but our original Damdami Sahib Bir recension was also lost in that carnage. However, over the years I have spent researching our history, many claimed it was taken back to Afghanistan by Ahmad Shah Abdali's troops as loot whilst others said it was secretly hidden somewhere by the Singhs for safe-keeping. As of today, it remains untraceable and I presume it is gone for good. However, I came across a couple of articles stating that there were actually around five master-copies of the original Damdami Bir, with one of these copies being safeguarded by the jatha of Bhai Sudha Singh of the Shaheedan Misl. "It is said that the tenth Sikh master Guru Gobind Singh had got five birs written at Damdama Sahib. The bani (writings) of the ninth Sikh master Guru Tegh Bahadur were incorporated in these birs. These five birs were given to different jathas (groups) of Sikhs by Guru Gobind Singh to be safely installed. One bir was being taken by Sudha Singh who was leading a jatha of 19 Sikhs, when Abdali'[s] forces stormed Kup-Rohira and killed thousands of Sikhs. Though all 19 Sikhs were massacred by Abdali, Sudha Singh somehow brought the bir to Kuthala. Since then it has been kept at village gurdwara." (Times of India, 2012) The gurdwara today [Gurdwara Shaheed Baba Sudha Singh Ji in Kuthala] has a certain historical manuscript that they claim is one of the five master-copies of the Damdama recension. You can see close-up shots of the bir in the video posted. I will also share close-up images of its folios in the comment section. I will also provide a faithful English translation of the video's narration so non-Punjabi speakers may benefit from this post. I will leave the question on whether this bir is authentic or not to your judgement but I will provide my own analysis below. English translation of the video's narration: The Guru-form Guru Khalsa Holy Congregation (Sadh Sangat) Ji, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. The Gurdwara Sahib that the congregation is currently beholding is situated in Village Kuthala, near Malerkotla, in the Sangrur district of Punjab. A very great treasure is preserved within this Gurdwara Sahib. The history of this Gurdwara Sahib is very closely related to the Vada Ghalughara (The Great Holocaust) that took place in February 1762. Baba Sudha Singh Ji, the third head of the Shaheedi Misl, arrived at this location considering it a safe place. He brought with him that sacred holy scripture (Saroop) which the Tenth Father, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, had personally dictated to Bhai Mani Singh Ji on the holy land of Damdama Sahib. Upon arriving, he personally performed the last rites (cremation) of 19 martyred Sikhs at this site. As he prepared to leave to take command of the Jatha (the Sikh contingent), the sacred holy scripture he had brought was enshrined at this very location. At that time, this place was known as Dera Jaga Sidh, but nowadays, a very beautiful building stands here in the name of Gurdwara Sahib Shaheedi. The sacred holy scriptures that were enshrined at that time are today ceremoniously displayed (Prakashwan) with great respect every Channi Dashmi (the tenth day of the bright lunar fortnight) for the congregation to behold. Devotees from within the country and abroad arrive to catch a glimpse of these sacred scriptures and receive the Guru's blessings. Every year, an annual Gurmat Samagam (religious congregation) is held for five consecutive days in memory of the martyrs of the Great Holocaust, concluding on Magh Sudi Dashmi. Furthermore, a book containing the full detailed history—titled after Shaheed Baba Sudha Singh Ji and the Hand-written Holy Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji—was released in February 2013 by the managing volunteers based on historical research. It was released by the 14th head of the Shaheedi Misl, Singh Sahib Baba Makhan Singh Ji (the current head of Baba Bakala Sahib), the Meet Jathedar Singh Ji, and Sant Gurdev Singh Ji of Anandpur Sahib (the current head). The congregation can obtain spiritual benefit by reading it. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. My analysis: In my humble opinion (which may be incorrect), this bir is not a master-copy of the Damdami Bir. It more closely resembles the highly-decorated birs of the Kashmiri-style that were created during the reign of the Sikh Empire in the first half of the 19th century. We can see this bir has highly illuminated and illustrated angs (folios), which took the great skill of a master artisan to make, which required resources to pay and patronize. Usually, the manuscripts during the Sikh Empire were the most elaborately decorated, as this was when the Sikhs were at a high-point, masters of the land, possessing vast amounts of resources that they could use to fund such endeavors. Therefore, whilst the story may be true and a master-copy of the Damdami Bir recension may have once been at this location, I am not convinced that this particular manuscript is it. I may be mistaken and I am open to constructive criticism. 1633648456_GurdwaraHistory.mp4

Sri Kesgarh Sahib (and Akaal Takht) has always allowed eating meat for those who take Amrit there, as long as it's not ritually killed like halaal. They've followed the official Sikh Rehat Maryada since it was made in the 30s, before that they were Nihang Maryada who also allow meat. So no Panj Pyaare have ever mandated being veg at Anandpur Sahib. You can read the full Sikh Rehat Maryada in English, it includes the Panj Pyaare are meant to say on the day (page 57 I believe). My cousin took Amrit at Anandpur Sahib and my other one in Darbar Sahib 8 years later. I recently showed them both this page and they said that's exactly what the Panj said to them word for word at their Sanchaars

Anandpur Sahib does and always has followed the Sikh Rehat Maryada, same as Darbar Sahib in Amritsar. They allow you to eat any eggs, fish or meat as long it is not Halal meat/killed Ritualistically. They say Kes is the Kakkar, not Keski. I believe only AKJ says that and nobody else. You can read the full Sikh Rehat Maryada, page 56-7 I believe is what the Panj Pyaare are meant to say on the day. My cousin took Amrit at Anandpur Sahib and the other in Darbar Sahib 8 years later. I showed them both this page and they said that is exactly what the Panj said to them word for word at their Sanchaar

All Sikhs must recite Rehras Sahib daily but Chaupai Sahib and the short Anand Sahib were only added to it by SGPC and other jathebandis in the 1900s. In Guru Granth Sahib Ji's saroop, "Sodar Rehras" appears from "So dar tera keha" to "Saran pare ki rakho sarma", which is basically the first half of "Rehras" in all standard Gutka Sahibaan. So why do we recite these? Obviously doing more Baani can never be bad, but most Amritdharis recite Benti Chaupai and Anand Sahib in their morning Nitnem so why should we recite these two Baania again instead of a new one? That time could be used to read Shastar Naam Mala, Shabad Hazaare etc. And why do these two Baanis get more importance than the others? Surely if we recite Chaupai Sahib and (part of) Anand Sahib twice in a day then we should also recite Japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib and Tav Prasad Savaiya twice as well? Note: Pls correct me if I'm wrong about SGPC. My theory is that they added these into Rehras Sahib cos they removed them from the morning Baania but still had to include them in the daily Nitnem somehow, but this doesn't explain why older Samparde like Budha Dal also have this version of Rehras Sahib in their Gutkeh - someone enlighten Daas pls Bhul Chuk Maaf

There's no debate that all Sikhs must recite Rehras Sahib daily but Chaupai Sahib and the short Anand Sahib were only added to "Rehras Sahib" by SGPC and other jathebandis in the 1900s. In Guru Granth Sahib Ji's saroop, "Sodar Rehras" appears from "So dar tera keha" to "Saran pare ki rakho sarma", which is basically the first half of "Rehras" in all standard Gutka Sahibaan. So why do we recite these? I agree doing more Baani can never be bad, but most Amritdharis recite Benti Chaupai and Anand Sahib in their morning Nitnem so why should we recite these two Baania again instead of a new one? That time could be used to read Shastar Naam Mala, Shabad Hazaare etc. And why do these two Baanis get more importance than the others? Surely if we recite Chaupai Sahib and (part of) Anand Sahib twice in a day then we should also recite Japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib and Tav Prasad Savaiya twice as well? Note: Pls correct me if I'm wrong about SGPC. My theory is that they added these into Rehras Sahib as they removed them from the morning Baania but still had to include them in the daily Nitnem somehow, but this doesn't explain why older Samparde like Budha Dal also have this version of Rehras Sahib in their Gutkeh - someone enlighten Daas pls Bhul Chuk Maaf

Uncle, realistically are you gonna challenge it in real life? I could fully jhatka and eat a steak wearing Bana bilkul tere samne but on God you could do nothing about that

Flintstone Saab, can't you type in one message? Or must you drop the full Godfather trilogy with every response, minimum 3 responses? 1) They don't jhatka cows at Hazur Sahib because it's in a country called "India", in a state called "Maharashtra" - and beef is strictly illegal there 2) I said a quote from Adi/Dasam Granth saying "you can't eat beef" - "protection of cows" could be Maharaj talking about defending them for Hindus, same reason we do Aarti-Aarta. If u reference a quote, u gotta say the context of the verse. Otherwise there are verses in SGGS Ji which seemingly tell you to convert to Islam; of course that's not what Maharaj is saying but without context many quotes from Baani seem misleading 3) Why does 90% of your "evidence" come from living people, like "the head of Taruna Dal" or "Baba Pala Singh" - very rarely (like less than 10%) of it is from the Gurus' direct words. Do you realise that these people are humans with flaws/bias? Maharaj ended the line of human Gurus for a reason 4) Funnily enough, even Budha Dal's maryada in the Sundar gutka does not ban beef. If individual Akaalis taboo it, that doesn't mean it's the actual hukam lol 5) You mention Naamdharis guarding cows but they are also vegetarians who do not carry a kirpan and say Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a Guru - using them as an example is funny 6) Bro who uses "diapers" and "mate" in the same sentence? Man really tried sounding like Andrew Tate with the British/American accent mix 7) So you're about 30 years old and still beefing strangers online? Brooooo where's your MOTHER, did Aunty Ji never shout you away from ur keyboard? "Oy Flentstone puttar, thalle aa hun, roti ban gyi!!!!" 8 ) Wait since you're some Uncle, how do you balance work life with ur keyboard warrior shift? Or do u just sit vailah at home, like unemployed? SERIOUS QUESTION: Is your account rank on this forum the only thing on your CV ? 9) Can you imagine Maharaj condoning you calling me names like "mughal"? You keep reading about these "heads of Taruna Dal" but you need to google "Guru Nanak Dev Ji's teachings on kindness and anger" instead - you're basically trying to solve degree level maths equations when you can't even understand "1 + 1 = 2" (prediction - I bet he's gonna respond debating one little detail of this post like my joke about accents, but fully miss the bigger picture, or get upset again. He also will likely reference another "sant" or author, or pull a random quote completely out of context)

ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਨਾਮੇ ਹੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ Kaeval Raam Naam Man Vasiaa Naamae Hee Mukath Paaee || केवल राम नामु मनि वसिआ नामे ही मुकति पाई ॥ The Naam, the Name of the Lord alone abides in the mind; and through the Naam, the Name of the Lord, one finds liberation.

Shame if our past these modern days jatts sgpc lost are . One question I have is...where were the Nihangs and the anti jar Seva when anandgarh was town down and kshgarh remade to what it is now....mughals couldn't even destroy the qila. Yet we did at multiple places with our own hands..shame on sangat flr not stopping precious ones and lakh lanat to the destructors of Sikh puratan asthaans all these kar Seva babeh of the past

Reason behind it is. You can't get mass sangat in to fill the golak up.... that's why they are all the same in design etc .probs some mafia rAcket related to the mass marbeling of gurughars. Such a shame. Hardly any pictures of the original anandgar qila..only one in the toor collection

Very good post It's such a shame listen anandpur sahib and all it's fort could not be preserved

I was here when u were in your diapers mate. 2005. Twenty years. Tu kal da jwak.

Dhan dhan baba pala singh mastana ji bhamgyani. Looked after over 10k stray cattle and di their Seva till his last breath. Yet the likes of you vsingh eating beef. You know nothing about sikhi. Namdharis sacrificed their lifes when a beef butcherkhana opened and carrion was dropped into the prkarma of Sri Harimandir sahib

Uggardanti section speaks about protection of the cow. You clearly haven't read dasam bani as you showed how clueless you are. You want to wear bana and eat beef? Malech Mughal khalsa is what u r. Please wear bana ask baba joga Singh head of trna dal shaheedi misl, that u consume beef and any other jathedar. They will strip u off ur bana moo kala karke

Hell no. I know plenty of Hazoori Singhs who live there, none eat beef only jhatka of chicken goat and wild boar. Because the rehit they have you can't consume beef. That's khalsa myadha from day 1 same as Nihang singhs

In 2019, a series of events occurred that led to a paradigm shift in the future conservation of Sikh heritage. At Gurdwara Sri Darbar Sahib in Tarn Taran, founded by Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, there is a historic Darshani Deori gateway that was constructed during Sikh-rule by Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s grandson, Kunwar Nau Nihal Singh, who felt a deep connection to the sacred gurdwara. However, as with all buildings, overtime lack of surveillance and maintenance led to cracks developing in the structure. The Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee passed a resolution allowing the Kar Seva baba Jagtar Singh to “restore”, “renovate”, or “reconstruct” the Darshanj Deori. On 14 September 2018, a Jagtar Singh’s group attempted to topple the structure but local Sikh activists stopped them, saving it. By October of the same year, the resolution was withdrawn and the decision was put on-hold. However, that didn’t stop the zealous baba in his mission to destroy the historical building. The following year on the night of Saturday, 30 March 2019 at 9:00 P.M., a 300-man strong “army” of Kar Seva workers under Jagtar Singh armed with sharp-edged weapons, baseball bats, hammers, and sticks started toppling the structure, allegedly without the SGPC’s permission. For two hours, they continued their destructive rampage on the edifice ignoring desperate calls to stop their demolition from local Sikhs. The SGPC ignored calls trying to draw their attention to the issue. Finally at around 11:00 P.M., a police team led by deputy-superintendent Kawaljit Singh arrived and intervened, putting a stop to the Kar Seva destruction. Sadly, four domed-structured and other features located at the top of the building had been destroyed but the rest of the building was saved, for now. Local Sikhs demanded that a criminal case be put against the Kar Seva baba Jagtar Singh and warned that they would protest if this was not done. The manager of the gurdwara complex, Partap Singh, claimed to have called Jagtar Singh and told him to cease the vandalism but he did not lodge a police complaint. Sikhs were rightfully outraged at the wanton razing of their historical heritage by corrupt and ignoramus parties. The SGPC, seeing the anger of the Sikh Quom, decided instead to renovate and conserve the historical deori rather than demolishing it and rebuilding a new one. Before initiating the renovation work, a meeting was held in this regard and experts of Directorate of Cultural Affairs Archaeology and Archives Museum Punjab, Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar, local intellectuals and members of Sikh organisations assembled for discussion. The SGPC formed a three-member panel to investigate the issue. Partap Singh, manager of the gurdwara, was suspended for failing to prevent the dismantlement of the deori. All further gurdwara repair-related responsible were withdrawn from the Jagtar Singh-led Kar Seva group. An alliance of 30 Sikh organizations demanded an independent probe into the role of the SGPC and criminal action against the Kar Seva group. Surely, someone must be profiting from this affair, whether that means pocketing funds gathered under the guise of well-meaning Kar Seva from the Sikh community or other nefarious activities. The darshani deori would eventually be restored over the years following the incident by an archeological agency under the guidance of experts, without tampering with the original structure. This remains a critical moment in Sikh history: for the first time ever, the Sikh community stood-up and said NO, enough is enough. Too much has been lost, we will not allow more to be taken from us. The Kar Seva babas have destroyed 90-95% of Sikh heritage in Punjab within the past decades, the SGPC allows them to do so. Only we as Sikhs have the power to stop them. We have to raise our voice and allow ourselves to be heard! Staying silent and docile means more of our history will be stolen from us by these dushman, who prefer to pocket funds while converting Sikh history into mythology by wiping out all evidences of our past from this Earth. IMAGE CREDITS These photographs were sourced from various news articles and social-media posts documenting the incident. Two of the historical photographs (both from 1934) were provided by the Sikh History Research Centre of Khalsa College while another historical photograph was sourced from SikhMuseum.com. The colour photograph of the darshani deori taken prior to the destruction was sourced from the Facebook account of Rajwant Singh (Washington).

1) You've read many Sikh authors, but not Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 52 Hukams? "Kaurha bachan nahi kahinaa" ("NEVER utter a bitter statement") did not stop you from using racist words for Muslims, calling me "Shameful" and swearing? 2) Show me where the Gurus said I cannot eat beef Only a quote from the Gurus in Adi or Dasam Granth pls - if you can't find one that ta-da, have a nice day 3) Why come onto a Sikhi forum and name yourself Caveman? Everyone's username here has Singh, Kaur or something cool like "iPledgeBlue" cos it's Khalsa rang, but you're sounding like Fred Flintstone took Amrit or something . Shoulda just called yourself "Khalsa Croods" instead

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I asked Baba Kalwant Singh Ji (Jathedar of Hazur Sahib) if there is any restriciton on meat - he said "Sirf kuthha maas khaa nhi sakta - ohnu binna koi vi maas tikhe aa". When i asked about beef, he said this is fine

You want to wear the bana of the shaheed Singhs and shastar yet you think Sikhs can consume beef . Mughal khalsa AQN6cPbF0X9Wtg7fF1ZOI-izq4v5-sFx-fzwlHwKeuyalUVCH39fW6S81UxFjYN0NxUI8DIUlzfu__EuI1R3itWHBsHZlHqC.mp4 AQM5IHM_Te-vRIOK9zgnUsX28sqsQN8MHU4LNAqevUVkxur8dpJCAuZh6CvoDhAEgAmJPyfz6cAJJV8DuAxGc2CBTIkOAbEP.mp4

Then in time, some selfish men, for the sake of filling their bellies, forsook the 'Sanatani' (traditional)Singhs (i.e., their Gurus' principles), and in accordance with their own intellect began to self-manufacture the [Sikh] faith. The ordinary people, thinking that they represent the Guru's faith, joined them. Not considering the past or future, not looking at past historical books. Then, when it reached such a state that for us [eating of] cow and goat was considered equal; that we were not Hindus; on hearing the Guru-like 'devtas' (Hindu gods/goddesses) being slandered, this dog of the Guru (i.e., loyal disciple) became dejected from the world. I desired that I sitting in some mountain cave eating the fruit [there in the wilds] I will subsist. To endure such anti-Dharma is a miserable plight." (Nihang Sanpuran Singh, Suraj Vansiya Khalsa Panth, (Siri Chand Press, n.d.), Introduction)

You mention Hazoor sahib. Go over there and ask the Singhs if us Sikhs can eat beef. U will get a great reply. Go ask the Nihangs if we can eat beef You are shameful for spouting your own BS made up <banned word filter activated>. For a Sikh to consume beef ...might as well shave your kesh off and hand it to a sul a

Beef????? Are you retarded????