ekam

I must concede that Nihal is actually handling this debate with a good degree of balance and impartiality. I criticise him when he doesn't, so I guess I should commend him when he does.

Yes, I couldn't get through on the phone so emailed my views and thankfully they were read out.

It's unbelieveable how many ignorant people support the actions of beadbi!

The Dudley Committee supporting Bibi ji has clearly rejected the Hukam of the Akal Takht, Live on air - and her justification is...."... not breaking any UK law.........I'm a modern person".............

Currently, although the balance of callers is in favour of using the SCC for parties - Nihal himself does seem to be maintaining balance currently.

The whole debate is very ill-informed and based around the media inflamation of the protest.

Also amazing how the bibi ji involved in the show cannot even bring herself to admit that meat and alcohol was served on the premisis.

Interesting to see that he has questioned these points just now! Let's see where this heads!

Note: He has actively sought non-Sikhs to call in.

This Nihal is a very sly presenter. He'll make out he's impartial but very cleverly lean on the side of anti-Sikhism.

I'm trying to get through to the show, if anybody else gets through - ask him these questions:

1) Would the serving of beef at a Hindu Cultural Centre be accepted?

2) Would the serving of pork at an Islamic Cultural Centre be accepted?

I'm very glad you entered when you did, and in appreciation two rhyming couplets, I composed a few weeks ago

(one for a sisters wedding ).

Medare, I didn't enter for your defence, but to encourage debate on the topic for a just conclusion.

Whilst I appreciate poetry in general, it is naive to question the teachings of Gurbani with a few lines (if at all!), however I hope you can find your answers from Gurbani itself.

If my personal opinions are to be brought to the fore, I am a staunch opposer of an Anand Karaj being conducted anywhere else than in a Gurdwara in the appropriate manner.

What would you do if an Anand Karaj was to take place in a nightclub venue, during the daytime even if there is no alcohol on the premesis at the time? Would you accept that? (I dread you say yes!)

It's not about whether alcohol is present, it's what the venue symbolises and what general attachments exist to the conventional form of the venue.

Okay, steady on Mr. Ekam. I'm welling up here...

I hope you extend your foray into the waters of sikhsangat.com and make it a prolonged excursion. It will be interesting to hear your opinions on other issues facing our faith. Don't disappear with our friend Mr. Medare.

I welcome your invitation (may not be the right word) to continue on the forum and I fully intend to - both to learn and to contribute

Alright, don't milk it. I admit I possibly jumped the gun.

Although my intuition is telling me you're most likely a Mr. Medare supporter, I'll take your word for it that you're just here for the debate.

With all respect and without reacting negatively to your statements - follow your intuition,so that you can learn from your own mistakes.

Mr. Ekam, if you were genuinely against the consumption of alcohol - as a Sikh - you would not entertain the notion that drinking alcohol is acceptable. The issue wouldn't even be on your radar no matter how spiritually pious the drinker is. There is nothing to debate in this instance. One glass, half a glass, half a keg, 100 kegs - it doesn't matter because it is all alcohol.

Also, I apologise if my previous posts slipped into "character attack" territory. It's something I'm working to improve upon and that's my problem.

The point is, alcohol is just a peripheral component in the debate - hence I am not endorsing it, I am simply using the example to illustrate the wider argument that whether the person is an Amritdhari or not, there are many misguided souls and our problems extend beyond the consumption of alcohol, it stems from self interest and perhaps ignorance. Which is why I stated I do not defend Medare's comments, but feel that there bigger issues facing the community.

Upon reading other posts of his there are many (if not all) viewpoints of his that I do not agree with personally. But would much prefer they are fairly debated, without the assumption that to query the existence of something is to condone it.

Thank you Gurdssingh, I'm glad you understand the perspective, and I hope the understanding would extend to others.

It definitely is all about educating and informing people. The truth of the world is, that whether Amritdhari or not, there are people who are misguided, and the way to inform them is not through making assumptions about them, but instead taking encouraging progressive discourse.

I have followed this forum for quite some time, and learnt a lot of good from it - and the first time I have decided to post, and to voice my opinion for further progression and understanding, I am subject to negative assumptions about my so called intentions?

Nice.

My word, you are a slippery customer aren't you? Playing both sides and then hoping someone quotes "wonderful Gurbani" in order to prove you wrong? You mean Guru Amar Das Ji's composition which clearly defines the Sikhi position on alcohol?

Also, nothing was misinterpreted. If your personal opinion was what you truly believed, you wouldn't be suggesting that the odd glass of wine is permissable. Are you saying you were playing Devil's Advocate? Please.

It is a shame that your posts are underlined with an attack on character, when in fact you know nothing about me.

And it is a greater shame that you continue to misinterpret my posts, mistaking neutrality with 'playing both sides' and worse still, mistaking the interest in Gurbani as some sort of sinister cue? I am glad you pointed out Guru Amar Das ji's composition as I hope it will make those who did not know if it aware..??? I myself am not familiar so if it serves to educate me and to help reinforce my convictions, is that not positive progression??

You think because I questioned the notion of an amritdhari having a glass of wine, that it suggests I endorse the practice?? If anything, I could not be more strongly against it, but in neutrality, one can learn a lot from both sides, because from this is when the best arguments for and against are put forward.

Why is it difficult to discuss openly, instead of making assumptions?

Show me one edict or sandesh which says "Sikhs can drink alcohol as long as it's only one glass and / or not to excess".

Don't make nonsense statements such as the above, and then sign-off with a disclaimer absolving yourself of all responsibilty under the guise of engaging in "healthy" debate.

If my previous posts are read, it does not once endorse the consumption of alcohol, nor suggest that there are edicts or sandesh that promotes the same. I simply bring to light the current situation.

My personal opinion in fact, is that we should all abstain from alcohol, but I did not voice my personal opinion in this debate for the purposes of neutrality.

You could've responded with a wonderful quote from Gurbani, which advises abstinence from all intoxicants so that we can all learn of the wonderful truth, but instead you unforunately chose to misinterpret my questions and label them as nonsense statements.

That is a very general assumption - to assume that amritdharis who drink, feel that they must?

Is it not feasible that an Amritdhari who drinks a glass of wine with his meal has enough spirituality and self control to not fall into excess?

For the record, I am not an amritdhari, or even kesdhari, and I do not side with any one opinion. I try to address everything life throws at me on an individual basis and use the teaching to progress....

It seems as though this topic has taken off on a tangent from the original subject!

I very rarely post on forums, but to felt I had enough of an opinion to warrant addition on my part to the conversation.

Firstly, the family that have that have re-arranged the Anand Karaj to a Gurdwara three days before the event should be applauded for their understanding. And interestingly, it perhaps shows that the family were originally in the dark about the possible beadbi that would be caused?

Therefore, I would say that the Satkaar Campaign should also focus on lovingly educating Sikh communities on the potential causes of any perceived beadi to Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Sikh faith so that families are informed beforehand and can avoid the stresses of having to reschedule events and upsetting fellow Sikhs.

Secondly, perhaps the committee that were allowing the saroop of Guru Granth Sahib ji to be taken to the venue in the first place, should be questioned? What are the sangat to do if the Giani jis and committees are endorsing such practices?

Regarding the debate that has suddenly started around 'drinking' and Sikhi - I don't think SukhdevSinghMedare should be attacked, but neither should his opinions be endorsed. He did not enourage drinking in excess, but made references to 1 glass of wine or 1 beer and pitched it against a pious soul. There are many excesses that are bad for us - should we ban high calorie foods too? I do not condone drinking, nor am I against it, but I am against the effects of excess on the brain and thus character of a person. Drink alone is not the problem, the abuse of it is.

Are you assuming there are no amritdhari Sikhs who drink wine/beer? If so, address that issue.

I am not siding with SukhdevSinghMedare, I am siding with progressive and open conversation on this forum, for the betterment of all.