Gupti

Who was it that originally included her works in Adi Guru Granth and why?

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Anyone?

who chose shin-kin? lol

they must have had some sort of time machine then....shinda and kinda (the founders) are only middle-aged men

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Wow 2 blokes were behind Shin Kin. I seriously thought it was 2 women and the name was derived form SHINdo and KINdo.

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Really? Can anyone shed some light on this please!

Who was it that originally included her works in Adi Guru Granth and why?

who chose shin-kin? lol

they must have had some sort of time machine then....shinda and kinda (the founders) are only middle-aged men

www.sikhstudent.org

Akali Kaur Singh himself!

And I doubt if one is sent to hell just coz he/she is a vegetarian.

And by that very same concept I doubt if one is sent to hell because he/she is a meat eater.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I don't know much about Nihangs. But here is the little bit I have to say about meat eating.

Say there are 2 chardi kala GurSikhs. One eats meat and the other doesn't. They both are at a great spiritual avastha. Now what could happen after they die?

Case 1 : Dharamraaj is cool with meat eating (Halal or chatka or whatever)

Result : Both go to sachkhand

Case 2 : Dharamraaj is strictly against meat eating period!

Result : The vegetarian Sikh makes it to Sachkhand while the other has to pay for his deeds.

Conclusion : The veggie Sikh goes to Sachkhand in goth cases. The non-veggie has a 50% chance, and so he is the one taking the risk of coming back.

my half cent

bhul chuk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

What if the warrior went to hell for being a vegetarian?

How do we know the 'dietary criterion' for reaching Sachkand?

A Sakhi I heard: When Banda Bahadur and his army were surrounded before his capture, and all supply routes to his army were cut off, did his army not resort to eating their horses? Has anybody else heard this story as well? (I find it slighty hard to believe, not because of the meat issues but because a horse is a Nihangs "Jaan

Bhai" ie Best Friend/Brother for life)

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!!!

Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!

Really sorry!

I felt exactly the same way, I saw the dates and realised that there's only an outside chance that I would be able to make the August lecture.

"The Legacy of Guru Nanak" seems like it could be a fantastic lecture, pity I will not be able to make it.

Maybe organisers of Sikh Youth Camps can invite Jasleen Khandari to give a talk?

Why the annoyance? I'm quite positive that if these ancient Birs of Guru Granth Sahib were in India, the SGPC would have destroyed them by now.

The historical path by which they arrived in Britain is tainted, but at least in the UK they are well looked after and respected.

Its quite ironic that its the British that are preserving Sikh history, whilst the SGPC are destroying it!

Fateh Jagroop bhaji

Whether Bhang should be allowed in Sikhi is not what I am debating. Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history.

Hope this clears everything up. Please read through the entire post again if you are unsure of anything I said.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Just to add some confusion, you can also buy Half Life and then download CS.

To the best of my knowledge, CS is a game that is played 'on top' of Half Life.

It is 'free' to play CS, but one needs to have an authentic version of Half Life. To get this, you either buy the game CS (which is basically Half-Life pre-installed with CS) or you buy Half-Life and download CS (done automatically).

Either way is straight forward.

The very definition of Sikhi is to be on the path of learning, so I would also be very interested.

Vahiguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

The points raised by both yourself and MKhalsa are very interesting and thought provoking.

Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history

The point you bring to this debate is supported by this? That's quite a generalised statement! If you mean that some/many/most/all 'Akali Nihangs' of the Ranjit Singh period took part in wars and died whilst intoxicated on Bhang, then indeed that may be correct.

Yes, it was a generalised statement which did cause some confusement. I apologise for not being specific. If we look at the Maryada at Hazoor Sahib the traditions in place there have existed for some time. Before even Maharaja Ranjit Singh's era.

Let's also remember many of Ranjit Singh's practices...alcohol, other intoxicants, harem of women, extreme polygamy etc. That's why in my belief, according ot what i have read about it, this period actually represents a dark period of Khalsa History.

The authenticity of Dasam Granth is beyond my knowledge so I cannot give an opinon.

Veer Ji, earlier-on you were requested to provide proof that Siree Guru Sahib Ji advocated and supported the use of Bhang - you responded directly by providing 'Hikayat'. PLEASE do not do this in the future - you attributed something very controversial and even offensive to Siree Guru Sahib Ji whilst all along it seems that you were not even sure of the 'authenticity of Dasam Granth'. 

That is quite a thing - please ask for maafi from Siree Guru Sahib Ji for this error. If you were not sure you could have atleast said that this 'Hikayat' allegedly is the Word of Siree Guru Sahib Ji...ponder over this; it is indeed an important issue for you upon a personal, Gursikhi level.

The reason why I did not comment on the authenticity is because a lot of people are quick to form opinions. The authenticity of Dasam Granth is a debate that requires extensive research and background knowledge. Too many times people will give an opinion based on nothing but conjecture. I do agree with you that I should have used the word 'allegedly', and for that I apologise.

One also has to realise that only a small amount of the leaves are required to make "Shaheedi Degh", therefore we cannot compare tea/coffee/etc with someone high on smoking weed

hould not be compared to smoking weed' (which I felt someone was bound to say) had to be tackled first when comparing their effects.

This response to Veer Bikramjit Singh again seems to point towards your reliance upon 'histroical sources' as opposed to Dhurki Bani i.e The Authenticated Word of Vahiguru contained within Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the very Nemesis of this Kal Jug. How can you place such faith in the murky words of mortals compared to the Light of Lights, Siree Guru Sahib Ji?

Via historical sources it is obvious what these 'Akali Nihangs' were doing during this period of recent history; i fully accept that. But to validate it, just because 'it happened' and is recorded in contemporary sources is a major failing - in fact it is an act of shoddy logic. If your belief in Bhang has this rationale as its foundation, then Veer Ji i recommend that you seriously reassess what you want out of Sikhi...please.

My reliance on historical sources should not be taken as a gesture that I place it on the same level as Guroo's Bani.

My rationale for Bhang was that Nihangs took it in the past before going into battle and they should not be vilified for this.

As per the rest of your post, with Points 1 and 2 in mind, Dasam Bani is controversial due to certain parts. But it cannot be wholesalely disregarded as Guru's Bani because there are passages in there that are no doubt the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But because judgement is open on certain parts of Dasam Bani it is impossible to regard it or disregard it as Guru's Bani.

On my part I think it would have been better not to mention Bani in Dasam Granth, but instead concentrate on other works that showed that Nihangs in the past did co

nsume Shaheedi Degh (in reply to ms514's request).

Certainly. Apologies for not clarifying how I came to this view.

Off the top of my head works such as Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash mention sukha. Nihang Singhs consumed sukha before going into battle. Many Nihang Singhs became Shaheeds in these battles.

Fateh Jagroop bhaji

Whether Bhang should be allowed in Sikhi is not what I am debating. Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history.

The authenticity of Dasam Granth is beyond my knowledge so I cannot give an opinon.

But the third point that you made can also be directed at tea, coffee and Cola. All alter the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation.

(One also has to realise that only a small amount of the leaves are required to make "Shaheedi Degh", therefore we cannot compare tea/coffee/etc with someone high on smoking weed)

At the genetic level...

We have, I believe stopped evolving at that stage. We control our resources, we have a much better control of the environment. We don't need to evolve so we won't.

False.

The Human Body is always evolving.

Shouldn't a siropa only be given to one who has done an honourable deed? I do not agree with honouring a person based on their connection to a famous ancestor. It devalues the notion of a siropa.

So let's get to the real issue now. Prove that Guru Sahib stated that sukha is okay for a Sikh to consume (as Nihangs are Sikhs, the same hukamnamas and edicts apply to them as well right?). Then we have something real to discuss.

The English Translation of the last stanzas of all the Hikayats

Hikayat 2:

(The poet says),

`Oh Saki, the bartender, give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which I may need at the time of struggle,(60)

`And give me this so that at the time of assessment,

`I may commence the use of my sword.(61)(2)

Hikayat 3:

(The poet says),

"Oh! Saki, bring me the cup full of eyes-exhilarator,

Which restores the youthful vigour in a hundred year old.(57)

Hikayat 4:

(The poet says),

`O, Saki, Give me the cup full of green (liquid),

Which I need at the end of the long day.(140)

Give me so that my heart brims with freshness,

And fetches the pearls out of the depleted soil.(141)

Hikayat 5:

(The poet says),

`Oh! Saki, Give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which I need at the time of my nourishment.(50)

`Give it to me so that I can contemplate,

`As it kindles my thought like an earthen-lamp.'(51)(5)

Hi

kayat 6:

(The poet says),

`Oh! Saki. Give me green wine to drink,

Because the Master is intelligent enough, and is known all over.(42)

`Saki! Give me the cup full of greenish (liquid),

"Which soothes during the wars and the lonely nights."(42)

Hikayat 7:

(The poet says,)

`Oh! Saki. Give me green wine to drink,

`Because the Master is intelligent enough, and is known all over.(48)

`Saki! Give me the cup full of greenish (liquid),

`Which soothes during the wars and the lonely nights.'(49)

Hikayat 8:

(The poet says,)

`Oh the Saki, give me my green cup,

`So that without any infringement, I get the understanding.(43)

`And give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which helps to destroy the enemies.(44)(9)

Hikayat 9:

(The poet says,)

`Oh the Saki, give me my green cup,

`So that without any infringement, I get the understanding.(43)

`And give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which helps to destroy the enemies.(44)(9)

Hikayat 10:

(The Poet says),

`Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid,

`So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178)

`Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe,

`Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10)

Hikayat 11:

(The Poet says),

`Give me the cup full of liquidised poppy-husk,

`Which may help me at the time of struggle.(59)

`Also it is reliable to beat the enemy.

`Even one sip of this makes one feel like an elephant.'(60)(11)

Hikayat 12:

(The poet says),

`Oh! Saki, Give me the cup full of green (liquid),

`Which I need at the time of struggle.(20)

`Fill it up to the brim, so that I can drink it every time,

`And forget the afflictions of both the worlds.(21)(12)

Apologies ms514, I forgot all about this thread.

The side effects that you quoted for Dronabinol will no doubt hold true for some people.

Dizziness, lightheadedness, or fainting may occur , especially when you get up suddenly from a lying or sitting position. Getting up slowly may help lessen this problem. "

(Not ideal on the battlefield).

Singhs won most of their battles 'under the influence' of sukhaa, and still came out victors.

Symptoms of overdose

Being forgetful; change in your sense of smell, taste, sight, sound, or touch; change in how fast you think time is passing; constipation; decrease in motor coordination; drowsiness (severe); dryness of mouth (severe); false sense of well-being; fast or pounding heartbeat; feeling dizzy or lightheaded, especially when getting up from a lying or sitting position; feeling sluggish; mood changes; panic reaction; problems in urinating; redness of eyes; seizures; slurred speech; unusual drowsiness or dullness

Overdose! The key is use not abuse.

Other side effects may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. However, check with your doctor if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome:

More common

Clumsiness or unsteadiness; dizziness; drowsiness; false sense of well-being; nausea; trouble thinking; vomiting

Less common or rare

Blurred vision or any changes in vision; dryness of mouth; feeling faint or lightheaded, especially when getting up from a lying or sitting position; flushing of face; restlessness; unusual tiredness or weakness "

(Again, not desirable on the battlefield).

I rarely drink tea or coffee, but if I was to consume 8 or 9 cups of strong tea in one sitting I am sure that there will be a noticable effect on my brain. This is because tea is a drug, and it will affect the brain in some manner. However, if I was a regular tea drinker than the effects of 8 or 9 cups would rapidly diminish.

Different people will inevitably suffer different reactions to sukhaa.

Ask an alcoholic how much they started with, and they will usually tell you a very small amount. However, it becomes a solution to life's problems after a while and the dosage increases more and more. Could this not occur with marijuana, which has shown to induce at least psychological addiction by it making the user feel good?

pendancy on the drug. If a person drinks one glass of wine a year, they cannot be put in the same bracket as someone who drinks a bottle of vodka a day.

"In all things, the key is use, not abuse."

Then the core question comes out...Why? Why even take marijuana in the first place? Seeing that it can cause the effects above, why would a warrior want to take such a drug even in small quantities? There stands no reason unless the Nihangs are very prone to nausea, which is what the drug above is designed for. Why would Guru Sahib, the bestower of that Amrit that turned the dirt of the earth to Kings, need to add a drug to his Sikhs' life? When Guru Sahib shunned alcohol and tobacco (mind you, which have medicinal properties too), why would he condone marijuana?

Answer this question and why Guru Sahib would ever condone the usage of a drug almost recreationally, and its use might have a foot to stand on (though not a very stable one).

You have only quoted from sources that look at the effects of overconsumption of marijuana. You spoke about marijuana being found in medicine yet you still ask why take marijuana in the first place. Why add a drug to his Sikhs life? What about the countless drugs that are consumed by all Sikhs across the globe? Paracetomol, Ibuprofen, Aspirin, Amoxcylin, Tea, Caffeine, etc, etc.

Oveconsumption of all these goods has adverse effects on the body, yet we still consume them in educated doses.

A lot of the ideas presented here work on the misconception that all people suffer the same effects as each other. Different people have different tolerance levels.

Also, the evidence provided is from other parts of world where cannabis is consumed in a different manner. If you want to know the effect

of sukhaa on a Nihang then you must concentrate on studies where marijuana is consumed in a drink only.

If a Sikh was to stab an innocent person with his Kirpan, then there would be an uproar in the Western world on why Sikhs are allowed to carry 'knives'(sic). All Sikhs would then be judged by the actions of a person who could not control himself. In the same way, the misconception here is to judge the whole by the actions of a few. ie to judge those who use sukhaa based on those who abuse it.

Well when they destroyed all the old paintings at least the SGPC used toilet tiles of the highest quality to replace them. We should be extremely thankful for that.

1) When science has done research on sukha, i has determined that it produces many ill-effects, such as the ones listed below:

"The short-term effects of marijuana can include problems with memory and learning; distorted perception; difficulty in thinking and problem solving; loss of coordination; and increased heart rate. Research findings for long-term marijuana use indicate some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term use of other major drugs of abuse. For example, cannabinoid (THC or synthetic forms of THC) withdrawal in chronically exposed animals leads to an increase in the activation of the stress-response system(6) and changes in the activity of nerve cells containing dopamine(7). Dopamine neurons are involved in the regulation of motivation and reward, and are directly or indirectly affected by all drugs of abuse." (http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/marijuana.html)

I highly doubt that these are attributes that any human being wishes to encounter.

I am not qualified enough to give a judgement on the other aspects of your post, but I feel that I do have enough knowledge to counter this argument.

First of all, there is a dearth of information on the Internet on the pro's and cons of cannabis.

Secondly, the link that you gave is from a drug abuse website. Choosing a more scientific, neutral website would have been more appropriate because of the unbiased analysis of canna

bis that would have been undertaken. In contrast, this website presents 'facts' in a negative light to deter people from consuming cannabis.

Thirdly, and most importantly, most studies deal with the effects of smoking cannabis. To those uneducated about cannabis, there is no difference in the mode of consumption. However, smoking cannabis has drastically different effects on the body then drinking cannabis-laced drinks. Firstly, smoking anything is carcinogenic (cancer-causing), eg even a blank piece of paper! Secondly, the 'nasha' is absorbed straight into the blood stream via the aveoli, with no regulatory mechanisms involved (explaining the detrimental effect on the brain suffered by abusers). Thirdly, damage is also caused to the bronchitis giving the traditional smokers cough.

Also, the report quoted from does not explain how much dosage was given to test subjects. I'm lead to believe that sukhaa only contains a small amount of cannabis leaves. And the long-term effects only seemed to draw on withdrawal symptoms of animals who had been 'chronically exposed' to cannabinoid. What this basically means is that they exposed the animals to a high level of a drug found in cannabis over a period of time, building up a dependency on the drug. They then abruptly stopped administering the drug and observed the effects on the animal. (Just a quick aside, but for those who drink tea on a daily basis, do any of you consume more than 5/6 cups a day? If so, try not drinking tea for a couple of days. I think you may find that you are addicted to tea!)

The short-term effect of consuming a dose as small as what is present in sukhaa cannot be compared to the effects given above, as they deal with abuse and not use.

In all things, the key is use, not abuse.

I'm not 100% sure Bikramjit, but I was lead to believe that marijuana was banned by the British in India because they had heavily invested in the cotton trade in the America

s? Marijuana can be used to make hemp products that are by far superior to many of their competitor products. Also, alcohol and tea could be taxed freely by the British, but marijuana plants were out of British control because they grew everywhere.

Regards

Sorry Mr Singh, my post wasn't directed specifically at you. It was just a general diatribe.

Maybe the Bhatra example was bad, in light of what happened in Malaysia, but what about the general consensus about the consumption of meat?

It doesn't really matter, I feel that Sikhi is open to everyone, and if someone can do Kirtan as it was traditionally done (ie Raag) then they are upholding Guruji's honour.

Its funny how people quote from the Akal Takht when it suits them.

There is a post elsewhere about 'Bhatra' Sikhs eating meat in the Gurdawara. Surely, if we go by Akal Takht Hukam, then this is fine as long as the meat is jhatka?

Also, I feel no warmth or belonging to the current Jathedars of Sikhi - the heretical SGPC. They have created a money making machine out of Sikhi and for that I will never forgive them.

Ask all Gurdwares to returnmoney given to them by monay if they really believe a non-Amritdhari cannot do kirtan.

The Guru Granth Sahib is not exclusive to Sikhs - it is a universal Granth open to all humanity. How can someone teach love and humanity if they themselves feel that they are 'more' Sikh than others? - this in my view is ego!

Up until SGPC took control in the early 20th century, Muslims whose lineage went back to Bhai Mardana used to do Kirtan at Harminder Sahib.

Gurdwaras think nothing of taking money from 'apostates' - every time a new wedding hall needs to be built it is common to see mainly monay going up and making donations. Hypocrisy comes from those who consider themselves to be elite.

The Guru Granth Sahib is not exclusive to Sikhs - it is a universal Granth open to all humanity. How can someone teach love and humanity if they themselves feel that they are 'more' Sikh than others? - this in my view is ego!