RupZ

Sikhi believes in serving all of humanity regardless of race, gender, caste etc. I don't see how that relates to the issue of slavery.

Your explanation of the quotes doesn't make any sense. But ok. Please explain this one:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Another revelation by God?

"If she does not please the man who bought her". Well this does not mean sex slave as "modern thinking" would have you believe, because for Christians, Sex before marriage is wrong.

I would have also have to say is that im not a Christian and I have not read the whole bible which im assuming you have and your not just picking bits of the bible just to serve your own purpose.

By the way, I dont approve of slavery.

Are you going to say that the Bible and Semitic scriptures are revelations by God?

If you are a Sikh, you cannot believe that. God is Sat. Sat is only one and doesn't contradict. If the Bible is true and the Koran is true then slavery is fine. This is just one example along with countless other things that aren't according to Gurmat.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Did God reveal this?

As for Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahibs Bani: this was recorded before Guru Gobind Singh finalised the Damadami Bir. The Bani of Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib exists in pothis and in Granths that pre-date the Damdami Bir.

This is the tragedy of Sikhs today. Go to any other group and they will have so much confidence in their "revelations" from their "prophets" and will defend it. Come to the Sikhs and we'll not just not defend the greatness of Guru Nanak's revelation but in fact argue that it's NOT all that special. What more ghulaami can there possibly be?

Wow that was a quick reply! Who are their Masters? Saints? Fellow Men? Or is it a matter of being selfless and putting others before yourself?

Do you remember a little story about Ghanaya.

During a certain battle some Sikhs came to Guru Gobind Singh complaining that a water–carrier named Ghanaya was giving water to the enemy. Guru Gobind Singh called Ghanaya before him and asked him if that was true. Ghanaya replied that it was not true—when he saw injured soldiers on the field, he did not see Sikhs or non-Sikhs; he saw the Guru in every man.

So by giving water to ALL soliders he was serving the Guru. Seva basically.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

By the way I dont believe in caste system or anything like that.

Sikhism is the only religion who have scriptures that are written by the actual Prophet/Guru/Messiah call him whatever you desire.

Quran was by Disciples (via Gabriel)

Bible by Disciples

Gita by Disciples

So the above are prone to distortion and it's very visible they are distorted! But...

Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Mahraaj! - From the Lord Almighty Himself

Have you got any proof? The words from the Bible were reveled to the followers. Shabad was reveled in the same way.

Did you know that in the bible that it says that the earth is flat? And a LOT of people think that this means the planet Earth. Did you know that the Universe is flat? Planet Earth was never called "Earth" in old biblical times. All dhramic texts were reveled, its groups which call theses texts their known, but all are from God.

And as for Aad Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Tegh Bahadur's bani was included which was writen by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

singh, listen without disrespect, you might listen to paanthuk, but not every sikh youth does, they like hip-hop, bhangra ect.., these tracks are to inspire sikh youths, and get them interested to learn more about what happened in 1984. young youths don't listen to paanthuk these days, cause they don't understand them, instead of puttin these tracks down, you should show support towards the people who are doing this seva, thats why there aint no unity in our community, because our people jus like to put down people who try to something positive. No disrespect to you singh ... safe

by the way sikh unit.... you doing it big... keep it up..!

I know you mean well but what is this CD trying inspire to do? Go around with a gun? Hate any religious groups which was involved with 1984? Are theses CDs chardhi kala?

I admit some of the tracks are alright and speak about unity within the sikh community.

I listen to hip-hop music but im so glad im out of this phase. This stuff used to make me angry before, I used to feel oppsessed and feel like a slave. Man ive over this, I feel like throwing all the CDs about this stuff in the bin now and listen to something postive about the paanth rather then so called "Dhramic" tracks.

Yes I know we had it hard before but is there any point rubbing salt into the sikhs wounds with theses kinds of tracks?

Personally im getting kind of tried of theses kinds of albums now, but I know thats not ganna stop it from being produced.

This verse will silence all!

'So Mukh Jale Jit Ke Tahkur Jooni'

;May that mouth burn which says that God incarnates; (SGGS, M 5, p 1136)

Incarnated forms are born from sin, in our previous lives we sined, it is by good deeds of previous lives that we have obtained the human form. We are born from sin.

The Gurus' were avatar's meaning that came down from God, so that makes them without sin and were not Incarnated. Avatar and Incarnation are not the same. Avatar means to come down from.

Everyday I sin, I beg God for forgiveness everyday, hoping that God will forgive me and imbrase me.

Well Guys read this. Sikhi is soo messed up at the moment, dont you think we need it to be rediscovered? I dont believe the Khalsa only exists in Sikhi but other paths too.

Karni Nama

While Guru Nanak was in Mecca and Medina, Qazi Rukan Din asked, True King, tell us your prophecy again. Tell us how you will unfold the future.

Your name is Nanak Nirankari and you are from the Nation of the Lord. What are the instructions for the future?

Nanak replied Rukan Din, listen to the true answer

Whosoever reads or listens to this shall be content. All doubts shall be removed.

In the tenth dress shall reside The Lord.

I shall fight many battles against Emperor Aurangzeb.

I shall then send a letter of victory (Zafarnamah) to Aurangzeb with my Singh (Bhai Daya Singh).

Upon seeing him, Power shall lessen and he shall forget his devious ways.

Emperor Aurangzeb will be overwhelmed by the sight of Daya Singh and will start to tremble.

The Khalsa been resurrected! Good has not been done by Gobind Singh!

I shall vanish (from sight) having given a kingdom; My name being Gobind

There will be a time when the Khalsa shall forget the teachings I have given them. Sikhi will only be left in name. Many Wars shall occur.

I will have to return again to resurrect the Khalsa. They shall reside in the Punjab.

I shall make people from all four corners into one.

They will be in Majjha; They will raid Lahore.

They will bring Potohaar to justice; They will take Peshawar.

They will set up a cantonment at Attock and then open the Khyber Pass.

They will establish a kingdom in Kabul and then take Ghazni.

After bringing Hazaara to justice they will march on to Kandahar.

After taking Balack and Buckaara, they will conquer Sindh and Baloch.

After gaining victory over these lands they shall govern all the people.

Mecca, Medina and Rome shall tremble.

They shall gain victory in battle over south and west India.

The Gurus Army shall sit at the throne of Delhi.

Umbrellas of kingship shall sway over their heads. All shall be content.

From East to West all shall be conquered. None shall challenge the Khalsa. All humanity shall become one.

In the kingdom of the True King, Satjug shall be established.

The Khalsa Panth shall rule. The arrows of death shall not touch them.

The Army of the Timeless shall grow and spread like locusts.

All shall wear vestments of blue; no one else shall be seen.

Listen Qazi Rukan Din, The Singhs shall rule.

The Unholy Sheikhs shall be destroyed. Pirs and Mureeds shall be no more.

All shall recite the one name of the Lord. Then he shall come himself.

The untrue shall not be able to see his glory.

All humanity shall unite and he will distribute provinces.

The Earth shall give food and the mountains shall give diamonds.

Fruits of many kinds there shall be, upon the sight of the timeless.

All shall recite VAHEGURU and achieve salvation.

Many Dharamsalas (places of discussion) shall exist. The Koran and the Mosques shall vanish.

The Lord shall manifest himself in body (as man).

He will make all utter VAHEGURU. All Singhs shall flock under his banner.

All shall know him as the True One. He will sit at the throne of Delhi.

He will establish a kingdom of peace and no enemies will remain.

Wherever the Khalsa turns his eye, the 14 realms shall tremble.

For 14,000 years, this kingdom shall remain.

Wealth will be collected and food shall be distributed.

The naked and the starving shall all receive; no one will go without.

Sayeth Nanak, Rukan Din, This is how it shall be.

Whosoever reads the Karni Namah, his love with The Lord shall grow.

The Word of the Timeless shall prevail. Those uttering falsehood shall not remain.

After the effect of The Akaal, forests, mountains and the world shall see salvation.

The Khalsa shall Rule. There will be no-one left to oppose them.

All who are lost shall gain the safety of the Khalsa

Utter Vaheguru Ji

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raj Nama

Spoken by the First Master

First, Nanak went to Mecca;

Medina he afterwards visited.

The lord of Mecca and Medina,

Kaarun, he made his disciple.

When Nanak was about to depart,

Kaarun, the fortunate, thus spoke:

Now thou art about to go,

But when wilt thou return?

Then the Guru thus answered:

When I put on my tenth dress

I shall be called Gobind Singh;

Then shall all Singhs wear their hair;

They shall accept the Pahal of the two-edged Sword

Then shall the Khalsa be established;

Then shall men exclaim Vaheguru

The four races shall become one and the same;

The five weapons shall be worn by all.

In Kalyug they shall array themselves in vestments of blue;

The name of the Khalsa shall be everywhere.

In the time of Aurangzeb

The wondrous Khalsa shall arise.

Then shall battles be waged,

Endless war shall ensue,

And fighting shall follow year after year.

They shall place the name of Gobind Singh in their hearts.

When many heads shall be rendered up,

The Empire of the Khalsa shall prevail.

First, they shall conquer Punjab;

Then other countries shall be theirs;

Hindustan and the North shall be possessed by them;

Then the west shall bow to them.

When they enter Khorasan,

Kabul and Kandahar shall lie low.

When Iran has been laid prostrate,

Arabia shall be conquered and they shall march on to Mecca.

Mecca shall be beheld,

And Medina shall be seized.

Mighty shall be the rejoicing,

And all shall exclaim Vaheguru.

Unbelievers shall everywhere be destroyed;

The holy Khalsa shall be exalted.

Beasts and Birds shall tremble in the presence of the Lord.

Men and Women shall everywhere call on God.

The Earth, the Oceans and the Heavens shall call on God.

By calling on the Guru shall men be blessed.

Every faith shall become of the Khalsa;

No other religion will remain.

Vaheguru shall everywhere be repeated,

And pain and trouble shall depart.

In the Kalyug shall the Kingdom be established,

Which Nanak received from the Lord.

Worthless, I fall before God;

Nanak, the slave, cannot comprehend the ways of the Lord.

Thus replied Nanak to Kaaruns question.

Utter Vaheguru Ji

The Karni Namah and the Raj Namah are two significant chapters of the Sau Sakhi, the Sikh book of prophecy. The Raj Namah appears in, The History Of The Sikhs, by J D Cunningham on p. 340. Cunningham came across this document during the mid 19th century. He states that these compositions are of course fabulous as regards Nanak, and appear to be the compositions of the commencement or middle of the last century.

The Karni Namah was told to Qazi Rukan Din, Pir Bahaoud Din, Ghous, Kuthab, Saalaar, Hajji, Sheikh and Mushaikh Aulviya, who sat with Guru Nanak at religious discussions. The Raj Namah was told to Kaarun, the Emperor of Rome, on Guru Nanaks return from medina.

These prophecies were in the Old Janam Sakhis written by Bhai Bala, who accompanied Guru Nanak on his travels. However, the British removed them.

Raaj Karega Khalsa Aaki Rahai Na Koe.

Khuaar Hoe Sab Milengai Bachai Sharan Jo Hoe.

This is said by the Sikhs in their daily Ardas. As it can be seen, the Karni Nama is the only source of these words.

Just wanted to remind u lot (yet AGAIN) it is not a hindu nor a sikh thing.

its strictly CULTURAL - originated from Rajastan.. Do your research!!!

Thank you someone with common sence, finally!! Guru Nanak Dev Ji tied a Rakhi around his sisters rist.

its rehat to eat less, therefore you will need to go toilet less. the body needs to be trained to go toilet before you have ishanaan, i wouldnt call ways you dont agree with weird. its peoples own satkar levels. bana is such a great thing so in my eyes it should be treated exactly how said in the first post. n the thing with smoking, jus keep away from people when smoking, this duznt make you a vampire. i know alot of people who aint singhs who will move away from smokers due to the smell.

sory if offended n e1

I said its "wierd, because it is. If I dont agree with something doesnt make it wierd, and when I think its wierd whether I agree with it or not means I think its wierd. I dont agree with Sikhs who cut their hair but I dont think its wierd. This means you cant use the restroom at the Gurdwara or your having "dirty" bana? This makes no sense. This sounds like some of the hindu stuff whispered from a brahmin trying to mislead people to not wear bana. Having bana has nothing to do with using the restroom unless in the restroom you disrespect it. What would happen at war when you had to use the restroom on hot days where you need to hydrate yourself by drinking up to 64 ounces{8- 8oz cups} of water a day? You would have to strip down just to pee? or you can only go the other way once a day and before ishnaan? Most people go the second they just ate and other digest and then go. Your body is constantly exchanging the watse for the new food intake. Agreeing with this "changing your bana to use the restroom" sounds like some made up "wierd" thing that some misleaders have infultrated into some Sikhs of today. If you get too tech like people are then we are going to start thinking that if you dont do this like that at this time of the day while standing on one leg holding a cup of water etc is the only way to do things, when the Gurus broke this auspisious stuff, because most of this "wierd" stuff bear no fruit and make no sense so it had to have been brought in by someone misleading gullible Sikhs and now its spread further into and now is here to show to kids here. Blah Blah but this sounds suspicious.

Im with you 100%. Theses days Sikhi is more about looking the part rather then acting the part as well. Singhah Singhianyah used to wear bana all the time. They would get Blood one them, cut up with swords, they would get sweaty during fighting and in the heat. Keeping the bana clean has nothing to Marayada but more to do with self respect. Rahat Maryada means Rahat=Stay, Mar=Death, Yada=Remember; Stay in the remembrance of Death.

This aint directed at you Pritam Singh Khalsa: Soliders are coming to kill you and you want to take your time changing your kasharay by taking one leg out and one leg in. O too late, your probilby dead now? This is what I mean by looking the part. And sikhs theses days say that your not meant to go anywhere harmful? Sikhs went to war!! One of the most harmful of places!

LOL. If us Sikhs have to fight again, I could just image the paranoia about the bana.

Sikh: "Ok this is war!!"

Non-Sikh: Strikes the Sikh with their sword.

Sikh: "Oh nooo my Bana is dirty! I have to get out of this war and change and come back."

Sikhi was meant to be soo practical but theses days its a sin to wear a dirty bana. The Five K's are not only the symbols of our faith but serve a practical use.

This Shabad is by Bhagat Sheikh Fareed Ji in Salok Fareed Jee on Pannaa 1379

fareedhaa mai bholaavaa pag dhaa math mailee hoe jaae ||

fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty.

gehilaa roohu n jaanee sir bhee mittee khaae ||26||

My thoughtless self did not realize that one day, dust will consume my head as well. ||26||

Rupz,

You or people like you can say anything wrong about Sant Bhindrawale but that will get you nowhere because he has already been declared the greatest shaheed of this century by all sikhs.

Moreover he was the 14th head of Damdami Taksal started by Guru Gobind Singh jee and whose first head was Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee.

And who says the Kharkoo's were anti Hindu ?

The first massacre of Hindus after taking them out of a bus was done by secret service of Indra Gandhi.

Among the shaheeds of Indo Sikh battle in June 1984 were Baba Mohar Singh and his family who became Khalsa from Hindu.Baba Mohar Singh jee was very close to Sant jee.

The story of 2 small amritdhari children and how they wrapped explosives around themselves and jumped on to army tank in the parkarma of Harmandar Sahib is well known.

Another one was Ashok kumar who died in the Indo Sikh battle at Harmandar Sahib.

Later on his nephews "Bhai Bakshish Singh Kalyug" and "Bhai Paramjit Singh Pamma" gave their lifes for the sikh struggle.

There were other Hindus also who became Singhs of Baba Bhindrawale and tried to loot and threaten a Hindu shopkeeper in Amritsar and demanded Rs 3 lakhs from him at gunpoint in the name of Sant jee.

That shopkeeper reported this to sant jee and sant jee punished them in front of other singhs and they later told that they were GOI agents who had been sent to infiltrate Sant jees jatha.

The Khalistan movement was very good. Dowry system,mass weddings,eve teasing,social evils and crimes including crimes against women stopped and every one had great respect for the kharkoo singhs.

Later when the cats and dogs of GOI infiltrated the kharkoo ranks ,they indulged in all sorts of heinous crimes including crimes against women which continued even during the time of badal.

These police cats used to go into peoples houses dressed as kharkoos and demand food,the next day these very same police cats used to come raid along with the police and accuse the house people of giving food to kharkoos.

This gave a bad name to the Khalistan movement and this infiltration by police cats resulted in large scale killings of khalistani leaders.

Taking advantage of this police and army started killing amritdharis in each and every village in fake encounters whether they were connected to the movement or not .

Some fascist hindu leaders may have been killed by the kharkoos but at that time we forget how thousands innocent sikhs were massacared after Indra's death.

Any way there are still a number of patit sikhs in puniab who dont care a damn for any number of amritdhari sikhs,they just want their 'kursis'

I dont like to go into lengthy arguments on some point with a single ignorant kid who was perhaps born after Sant jees shahidi and perhaps relies only on reports on the net but I hope I have cleared some doubts of the sangat .

das nimana

Then why isnt this common knowledge? This should be told then.

Corection sis: Akaal Takhat No-one said Akaal Takhat belonged to Sant Ji.. not even he himself said that. End of day, he knew that the army was going to attack and so he went there to protect Guru Ji's Takhat.

Thanks for correcting me.

So you saying they didnt give high status to Guru Sahib Ji? I dont understand.. If I was carying a shield and I got hit by a sword, should I drop the sheild and say its useless?

Nah because there were a lot of other cults.

You've lost me dude!

I'm not anti-Hindu i'm just not sure that anyone who claims to be a sant/sadh/avtar is true. We live in the age of Kaljug and we have to be careful of any imposters.

I don't know who he is, and i won't insult him!

You made a good point. I didnt believe that this guy was an avtar. But I cant stand when people dont read up on things, before making their minds.

There are alot of ANTI people who complain about Sikhnet and any people who read from there. I read from there so all the people who complain are dumb I think but thats just my opinion.

lol

Watch out rupz people will start crying and whinning and complaining that you get info from that site.

I learn alot from Sikhnet.com but some people are loopy and complain.

Sorry I didnt mean anything like that. I apologize if I offended anyone.

In Gurbani there is Shakti, Shakti is a female energy as oppose to Shakta being the male energy.

The video will explain to you how it is.

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/videos/wmv/Jaap%2...%20part%201.wmv

You can download it, you know? It's tricky though, and I gotta go soon; I'll explain how to later if you don't know.

Cheers :TH:

That was luvlyy.

>Baana should be so so highly respected as is the uniform of the

>Khalsa, some people do have this respect and do not let their baana

>be disrespected in anyway, by not wearing it or going where people

>smoke or are committing other anti- gurmat actions. Some people

>won’t even wear baana when going o the toilet as see this as showing

>disrespect to the baana, as taking baana into such an unclean area.

>By just wearing the baana and not working on our actions, in trying

>to improve our own and others jeevans we are leading other people to

>believe that we are something which we are actually not.

Some of the pieces in this email are good, but didnt Singhs go to War with the baanay, didnt their baanay become unclean with blood, sweat? Dont take it personally just questioning the source.

When ever something is "Anti-Sikh" some people say "Khalistan Zinda bhat"

Rupz you dont even know Punjabi what can we expect from you.

First learn punjabi,we'll talk later .

How comes you understood what I said then? I think ive spelt "understood" wrongly, this may mean I need to learn English too.

Im assumming you dont believe God is in all then, does this mean you hate God? Everything this guy said is true, just because you say he's a hindu you think he's bad and thinking he's hindu makes you think that they are automatically connected with RSS. And im assuming you believe that talking behind peoples backs is a good idea and will wipe away sin .

Im a Sikh, which means im a Student of the Guru.

You guys are reading Aad Guru Granth Sahib everyday, chances are you have read a bani which was as you say written by a Hindu Bhakgat, because of this new "modern trend" some ignore parts of any bani which is not written by Guru Ji's and read only Guru Ji's bani, which might be good to some, but next time you matha teek Guru Granth Sahib, remember it is not just composed by Guru Ji. I believe all the Bhakgat's were Guru Ji's Bhakgat's are you trying to be one as well?

Does the Guru just reside in hardback covers? Im assuming you think im being "anti-sikh" now . Bani Guru, Guru Hay Bani. What does this meannnnn. Guru Ji gave Guruship to Shabad Guru, this is why keeping respect for Gutkey, Aad Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and Sarbloh Guru Granth Sahib is a must. Shaster is Guru too, God is Guru, we are all learning, does this mean where all Sikh? We can learn from everyone. When one of Guru Gobind Singh Jis Singh's gave water out to the wonded, did he just give it to Sikhs? Nope. Gave em to Muslims as well, why? Because Guru Ji resides everywhere, when your doing seva, you are actually doing seva for Guru Ji, this is how to serve the Guru.

I get so sick and tried about a worn out debates about Khalistan. When ever something is "Anti-Sikh" some people say "Khalistan Zinda bhat". Just because im not pro-khalstani doesnt make me against the Akal Takhat either. The Akal Takhat is not Sant Jarnails, its Guru Ji's. Was Guru Ji ever against Hindu's or Muslims? Punjab was so peachful in the time of Maharaja Ranji Singh, Sikhs, Hindu's and Muslman got alone nicely, where has it gone?

I hate what happend in Sri Harminder Sahib all that bloodsheed in the sight of Guru ji. Guru Granth Sahib even taken the shoots too. But if Sant Jarnails Ji put Guru Granth Sahib Ji in such a High status why he didnt take Guru Granth Sahib in a safe place? He even knew they were coming.

BTW Im not RSS, I dont call myself a hindu, or Muslem, im not a fake user at all, you guys can say what ever you want. Chances are ive probilby get banned from saying this stuff. Now im jut waiting for a backlesh now.

ssa,

i specifically wanted the version which comes on amritbani radio... it will go nicely with a compilation Gurbani cd im making.

thanks for your contributions anyways

Im after this Shabad too, but the version im after is by Tej Kaur which I couldnt find anywhere ! But its on SikhNet, anyone finds this version pls plss plssss PM meee and try to sort out something on MSN, thankss.

http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/music.nsf/e...33;OpenDocument

Today i went to Ramgharia Gurdwara Sahib in southall. To say i was shocked is an understatement!!!!!! As you walk in firstly you see everyone sittin on tables and chairs and eating langar with their shoes on!!! all this despite several Akal Takht hukamanamas on this subject. Then i spot a gyani walking out of the cooking section with shoes on carryying a bata of Karah Parsad!!! To be honest going to this gurdwara was such a eye opener, the darbar sahib where katha was going on was empty, where as everyone was busy gossiping in the langar hall downstairs!!is this the state of our gurdware today? while the youth goes round tackling the issue of Guru Sahib going to hotels etc, while this is commendable shouldnt we look closer to home and in our own gurdware and make sure hukamname are implemented there. If we cant get them implemented in a gurwara what hope do we have of them being implemented and understood by people of other faiths?

Whats wrong with Table and Chairs? When you go home do you sit on the floor and eat? Even if your sitting on the chairs near a table, everyone is still on the same level when eating. In Singh Sabba Gurdwara you have tables and chairs too. Only difference is that you dont get to sit on the tables but you have to stand near the tables, I choose not to stand near a table and eat since it gives me gas. I would prefer to sit either on the floor or on the chair near a table.

I personly see no problem with having tables and chairs in the Gurdwara.

Wow, that gave me the simran vibrations, this is how we should be together, wow im just impressed. I wish i was there to see it.

WJKK WJKF

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1...i=15026&t=15026

That story sounded freaky.