Kaljug Singh

Having looked at both Niddar Singhs sites, I believe their is no contradiction in what is stated in his interpretation of Sikhi.

He seems consistent in his beliefs,and the full title of the art in the SV site is "Sanatan Hindu Sikh ShasterVidya" which includes both the titles mentioned, and seems the fuller title name.

You may not accept his interpretation and beliefs but he does appear consistent and methodical, quoting historical and scriptural references to support his views.

D'oh! See the first page in which I compared the panktis Niddar quotes with his own interpretation. The errors are pretty clear.

As to the name, see the older pages of his website by typing in the name of his website in something like the waybackmachine . From 2002 onwards, the name has changed from Sikh Shastar Vidiya to Indian Sikh Shastar Vidiya to Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya to the latest version Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidiya.

K.

Also worth checking the sarbloh site. The folowing directy quoted statement can be found there:

" Nihang Niddar Singh, under the supreme command of the Panjvah Takht Shromani Panth Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer, or any of his Shagirds (students), associates who run or contribute to the websites, do not worship any deity but Ekh Nirankar Akal Va-eh Guru, the three Sikh scriptures, Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Panth (Spiritual Way), Udhasi, Nirmala and Sevapanthi Sikh Panth and the Shastars (traditional weapons employed in Sanatan Sikh Shashter Vidiya).t has to be noted that in accordance with the teachings of the Adi Guru Durbar, we as Sanatan Sikhs do greatly respect Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (Hindu dieties) etc., as great Bhagats (devotees) of Nirankar (formless) Va-eh Guru.

n fact, all who expound and love the truth and the message of universal peace and Ekta (Oneness/brotherhood) we respect and bow our heads in reverence to, be they of whatever faith, race, caste, colour or creed. What we are today, be it a Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc., is all according to the will of Sanatan God. In Adi Guru Durbar, Akali Guru Nanak writes: 'We have no power to speak or stay silent.

We have no power to ask or give.

We have no power to live or die.

We have no power to attain kingdoms, wealth or the fame that is born of them.

We have no power for spiritual awakening, or knowledge or thinking.

We have no power to know the method by which to attain salvation from the world.

He who has this power He alone employs it. Oh Nanak no one is high or low [meaning all are

As Va-eh Guru intended them to be].'

('Adi Guru Durbar', Japji Sahib) So to reiterate again for those foolish narrow-minded, biggoted, puritanical Sikh fanatics who only see God in there own narrow-minded perceptions of religion, Niddar Singh Nihang speaks as follows:

"I am an Akali meaning 'one who worships one Akal (Immortal God)' and I am a Nihang meaning I have 'no attachment but to one Akal'. I greatly respect the ancient Sanatan Hindu deities as Bhagats of Nirankar God in accordance with ancient Akali Nihang Sikh tradition."

Which is in direct contradiction to his Shastar Vidiya website. Perhaps you should advise him to make the necessary changes? Also, here he calls his art Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya then it is Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidiya on the SV website. So which is it?

Also, that's not really a direct quote is it? The first line reads on the website reads:

The Jathedar of the Budha Dal, UK, Nihang Niddar Singh, under the supreme command of the Panjvah Takht Shromani Panth Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer

This is another one of Niddar's lies. He is NOT the Jathedar of Buddha Dal in the UK.

(Sangat can see the page quoted above on Sarbloh dot info/htmls/epilogue_sikh.html)

K.

Wow, you really don't get it, do you? If the moderators of the forum have seen fit to put you on quality control due to content that the Sangat found offensive or inappropriate, it is considered ill-mannered to come back under a different username to again divert a thread with the same advertisements for Niddar Singh in a thread that has nothing to do with him.

Where did you get that Iron hand BS about WC? (Thats a question? lol They condition there hands but not to the extent of Iron hand people. You might as well have copied & pasted from wiki, it would have been better lol)

See William Cheung's Wt lineage for one that teaches Iron Palm conditoining for one.

If you really want to look at cult behaviour go to any Gatka akara, slowly brainwashing the kids into taking Amrit and then marching for khalistan. lol

No, encouraging the taking of Amrit is not brainwashing. It is the way of life set forth by Dasmesh Pita for his Singhs. As to Khalistan, well the same Dasmesh Pita who has given SIkhi rehat and Amrit has told us to establish Sikh Raj, a Raj that will be made with Shastar. Furthermore, the decalaration of the Independence of Khalistan was made in 1986 by the Sarbat Khalsa at Akal Takht in accordance with the wishes of the Khalsa Panth.

Also you might be think of: shastar vidya, sanatan shastar vidya, sanatan hindu sikh

shastar vidya. Word hindu was added to scare people like you away. The use of sikh and hindu are ment for simple people as yourself to overly describe Sanatan Shastar Vidya. Also it allows gora to easily identify it as india art with out watching a demo.

I'm glad you agree that "Sanatan Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidiya" is an invention of Niddar Singh.

List his whole martial

arts bio. Shows evidence of world class martial artist rating shastar vidya, these are

martial artist with over 30 years training inviting him to come and give seminars. Gives evidence of museums that Niddar Singh has work for. List publications like Times online, Reuters which carried article on shastar vidya. Not to mention Martial Art Illustrated that have written about him on a few occasions. By the way in a few months he will be in combat.

Still you say it cannot be substantiated. WOW

Appearing in a magazine is not evidence of anything except that he has a decent publicist. I call his art a lie because there is no evidence of his lineage.

Ignoring the obvious nonsense about his art coming from Shiva, Kalamukhas and Kapalikas, Naths and so on, there is no evidence that his lineage is true except for NIddar's claims. If NIddar expects us to take his lineage claims seriously, who are the other people that learned and taight the art? What are the names of his classmates? Can any of them confirm that they were taught the same art from the person who Niddar claims was his Gurdev? Furthermore, what are the names of Nidar's Gurdev's classmates? Can they confirm that they taught the same art? Where are the other people teaching the art or acquainted with it?

Niddar claims that his art descended from various Saivite sects. Well, where are the teachers of those sects teaching the same or similar art as Niddar? Niddar claims his art predates Sikhi. Can he provide a shred of evidence from the living descendants of the traditional Rajputs that they learned or practice the same art as Niddar?

5) Who taught you about sikhi? (feel free to ignore question 5, as any question on sikhi is too personal)

Waiting for your reply? Please stick to the format question and answer. A true singh does not shy away. Also I'm not demanding as I have no right, but punjabi/indian culuture does teach to offer in kind i,e, As I have done. Unless your to gora.

It's pretty clear that your knowledge of Sikhi comes from Niddar, and I am glad that you have confirmed for the sangat here that Niddar truly does seek to mislead others with his on distorted version of SIkhi.

Annd please don't try to tell me what a true SIngh does or ho a real Punjabi acts, because it's clear you kno nothing about either. Unless since your last post as maharaj where you said you were a Gujurati and a Hindu you have suddenly discovered your true lineage in hich you are no a Punjabi and a Sikh?

To be honest your level is so low. You may consider converting to a middle eastern

religion were things tend to be more black and white i.e. one god, one book mentality.

It will be easier for you.

LOL, there is only One God in Sikhi.

You are welcome to try to rebut the post I made on the Shastar Vidiya, but given your penchant for insults like "your level of Sikhi is low" instead of evidence based on Gurmat, don't feel bad if I don't take you seriously. Perhaps you should stick to Hinduism since you clearly kno nothing about Sikhi. :-)

K.

Bro, the guy who posted the thread goes to Aston university, hence Birmingham. Hence what I post is greatly relveant. Exceptionally one of the art Wing Chun I practised for over 10 years with the Uk wingchun association. HQ is based in jewelery quarters and they run good classes at Birmingham Uni,

Also Brother if you read my post I mention more than four other martial arts teacher, that I know or have trained directly with in Birmingham. I have spent more than 15 years in Birmingham and know the place, expecially the martial arts community. Not to be arrogant I do consider myself to be a seaoned martial arts, even b4 shastar vidya came down the line. When you say it unsubstantiated nonsense, I have written out the full lineage of the akara in the thread for linages please take a look. No other singh or anyone has posted to the request of that singh.

Cult-like mentality of his followers, "pot calling the kettle black". It's not gatka, where one singh told me their are 10 levels, at level 10 you can start training with real weapons, learn to ride a horse. However to get to level 10 you have to take Amrit lol. There is no cult like mentality, I'm a mona I like the historical side of what Niddar Singh says, but I train with him because hes a exceptional martial artist. Also theres no one who teaches classical sword fight as he does. All other arts tend to do kata (forms) or drill techniques like robots.

If want to discuss martial arts I train at the london akara, come down. I think I have answered all your questions, no please answer mine:

1)So what do you base your conclusions on about Niddar Singh? It's seems a lot of singhs have a problem with shastar vidya, even when top martial artist not just from UK but globally rate it. Also many museums such the V & A in london and many more hold Niddar Singh to be a expert in the field.

2) So what is your expertises in martial arts and sikh history?

3) So how many years have you been training in the martial arts?

When you talk about lack of repect we show, please read the posts on this forum, expecially yours.

Will be very interested to see your replies to my 3 questions.

Nope, this is just another means of advertising for Niddar Singh. Where does the OP ask about shastar vidiya? If he is from Brum, I am sure he knows about Niddar, yet his post asks nothing about shastar vidiya.

You posted pretty much exactly the same thing as your 1st post under the username maharaj in the thread on martial arts in the closed section. Please don't attempt to deny it. Your writing style is the same, your claims about your training are the same, you even made another account in the name shah when "maharaj" has aknowledged his name as being Arjuna Shah, lol.

You've clearly joined the forum with multiple accounts to advertise your master. This kind of deception is one of the examples of cult-like behaviour from nidar's chelay that I am talking about. It's also incredsibly disrespectful to the members of this forum who have seen fit to put you on quality control for your previous posts.

The thing is, nidar may have a useful art (albeit likely made up - if it is such an ancient art, why did he change its name sevewral times after he put up his website?), but it's this kind of disgusting behaviour from his students that will mean that I never attend any of his lessons.

My martial lineage is none of your concern, and my knowledge of Sikh history and Sikh scripture is strong enough to know that Nidar's so-called lineage cannot be substantiated and that his website is full of errors or outright lies in an attempt to portray Sikhi as a subset of hinduism.

K.

Oh, and was asking is it ok for belt during training? Does it limit training in any way? make the muscles weaker? Or is it a good option to prevent furhter injury?

A belt will prevent the necessary strengthening of the core musculature. This in turn will increase the likelihood of future injuries.

The advice of your medical professionals outweighs the above (i.e., if they say you need to wear a belt, then wear a belt).

K.

yes it was originally an islamic dance called khutka from which the term gatka came.

oh dear, you do not like the akali battlefield arts, have you ever been to the akharas to have a look at what goes on or just hearsay?

Congratulations on derailing another thread which had nothing to do with Niddar Singh with more Niddarite propaganda. I hope Niddar Singh is paying you well for your shameless advertising. If Niddar's chelay had any true belief in the utility of shastar vidiya, they would not feel a need to engage in such propaganda, and the same person would not to be posting from multiple accounts about its supposed effectiveness.

While I believe most of Niddar Singh's claims that his art is an Akali Singh art is unsubstantiated nonsense, I had not made my mind up on the usefulness of it. However, given the cult-like mentality of his followers, and the lack of respect they show posters on this forum, I think I'll pass on attending any of his lessons.

K.

I'm getting immensely tired of all these martial arts threads turning into advertisements for Nidar Singh, especially when they are mostly by the same person posting with different usernames - ekaraj, maharaj, and now shah.

If the mods are aware that these are the same person, posting the same things fron multiple accounts in an attempt to mislead the Sangat, why have you not deleted them and banned their IP addresses?

K.

Thanks agaain both of you.

Yes i best avoid belts then all together.

Shall i get one for weigtlifitng though? Because physio has said its ok for me to start weight training again, and i reckon a belt then would help prevent injury?

I cant really ask them about getting a belt for gurdwara, because from what theyve told em i should really be going gurdwara or sitting in that position for long time...But i cant stop going gurdwara, thats not an option.

I would ask your physio. If you don't need it, don't use it. Start off with very light weights and concentrate on perfect form and you should be fine unless there are serious structural issues you have not mentioned. Increase weight REALLY slowly and don't be tempted by your ego to slap on those extra weight plates when you feel yourself getting stronger.

Use the belt at the gurdwara if you need to sit for a long time. At home, practice sitting in the cross-legged position for increasing lengths of time. Spend time relaxing those same muscles right afterwards.

Get regular deep tissue or sports massages if you feel yourself getting painfully tense and tight over time, and check in with your physio from time to time.

I don't know if you already do this, but you may want to consider supplementing taurine (around 5g per day). Make sure you get enough pottasium in your diet also. The taurine and pottasium will help if the issue is cramping of muscles. (I have 5gs of taurine and a banana or two on deads and squats days.

K.

It's not about appreciation yes, it can be appreciated as a circus act to please crowds thats fine. It's when people start referring to Gatka as the traditional combat system and martial art of the Sikhs that a problem arises. It is a very big disrepect and disregard for the skill and fighting techniques mastered by the ancestors to say they used Gatka on the battlefields is laughable...

Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranewale, clearly defines the differences below, quotes from Mangalcharan website:

The following passage is from 'Gurbani Paat Darpan' written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranvale. Baba Ji is explaining two forms of vidiya [science/learning], the first being for show and the second being the real vidiya. Baba Ji uses the example of one performing exhibition Gatka as the false vidiya, whereas the real soorma [warrior] vidiya is where there is no show/exhitibtion.

From Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38.

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ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ।

There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science]

(੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

[similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

(੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves.

ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form.

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Shastar Vidiya. Not Chatka gatka, not Hindu Sikh Shastar Vidiya, not Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya.

Man, I hope Niddar Singh is paying you for all the advertising you and his other students here are doing on his behalf.

K.

Thats v helpful. Thanks so mcuh for that...

Defo should help as my problems seem v similar to yours.

So do you reckon there is any point in buying a belt to support the back?

Unless you are in severe pain, or your doctor recommends it, I would not wear a belt.

From personal experience of weight lifting, back belts will eventually weaken the core musculature and do more damage than good. This increases the likelihood of injury in the future.

K.

You can only see through one lens which is just like a brainwashed extremist Muslim.

All the best.

LOL. Yes, because pointing out facts and statistics about the predatory nature of muslim paedophile gangs is just like muslims raping and killing of innocents.

K.

1. The killers of 1984, were NOT Hindu. They may even have been born HINDU but their actions in killing innocents NO LONGER make them HINDU! They were criminal gangs bough in from outside Delhi let out of prisons by the congress and PAID to carry out murders of my innocent sikhs brothers and sisters! They were not HINDU, MUSLIM or Christian, they were DOGS

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. What is clear from talking to Sikhs who suffered through the violence is that these people who attacked them were Hindus and in some cases their own Hindu neighbours. This raping, murdering and pillaging was done in the name of a Hindu nationalism, the same kind of nationalism that is preached by Hindutva groups to this day. You cannot pretend that they temporarily stopped being Hindus while they were committing these crimes. All Hindus may not be guilty of crimes against Sikhs, but it is clear that some were.

K.

Go visit each teacher, attend a few lessons, and pick the one you enjoy the most. At the end of the day, if you do not enjoy your art, you will give up training.

If you choose one of the TCMAs make sure that your teacher is teaching gongs like finger and grip strength in Eagle Claw, Iron Hand in WC through work on the wooden dummy, without which most TCMAs are useless.

Once you have a strong base in one art, cross train in weapons and a get a little groundwork.

Ensure that there is regular sparring or some sort of means to pressure test your art so that you are confident that it will work when you need it.

K.

Hey Kalyug Singh,

I support the sikh campaign for justice Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Singh Tytler and other Congress thugs.

What disgusts me is how some people here are hating on cool water for preaching peace and standing up against hate.

Why people here hate US HINDUS who have not done anything to you Sikhs. You war should be against the congress criminals of 1984, NOT 900,000,000 Hindus.

Why are people here wanting to aleinate millions of hindus or otherwise support the sikh fight for justice, albeit quietly like many sikhs too.

Gurfateh and Namaskar, Hinduveer.

I am glad that you want justice for the Sikh community.

Just to be absolutely clear, we do not hate Hindus - we recognise them as our Dharmic brothers. After all, our Ninth Guru Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji sacrificed his Own head for the right of Hindus to wear their janeu.

However, until these criminals are brought to justice, until the Hindu community stops its hateful parchaar regarding Sikhs being a subset of Hindus, until Sikhs are recognised as a separate and distinct Panth and people by the Indian constitution, until they treated as equals by the majority Hindu community, there will be no love for India from Sikhs.

K.

It is not stupidity when I stand up against the venom and hate some members are preaching in their videos and posts here. What use is them talking about defending Sikhs when they are harming our image and creating a generation influenced on that hate.

As for other communities to apologise to us and bring justice to the wrongs they have done to us. The vast majority of Muslim Sikhs and Hindus respect each other and live side by side, it only takes a few rotten extremists who are so hate fuelled to bring everyone down into that spiral of negativity. I would rather defend a Hindu or a Muslim of good character than a Sikh who thinks being a thug and hating on others is cool. And similarly I would stand by a Sikh brother of good character against any hindu or muslim extremist. Everyone is human you cant judge an entire community for the wrongs of a few.

Oh Christ but you're thick. A minority? If the hatred against Sikhs in the Hindu and Muslim communities only comes from a minority, why has the majority failed to bring about the changes I talk about above?

For God's sake, the hatred of Hindus against Sikhs is enshrined in the Indian constitution and has remained unchallenged to this day - they do not even recognise Sikhs as being a separate Panth!

If Muslim hatred of non-Muslims comes from just a minority, why the hell do human rights groups in every Islamic country that is sharia-compliant report abuses against non-Muslim communities, including the kidnapping and rape of young children - the same thing that happens in the Uk by muslim gangs. Why do they not allow the building of churches and temples,and the proselytising of other religions?

What I find disgusting is that you are using the guise of spirituality to let such hateful things continue to happen and you accuse your own Sikh brothers of hate when these crimes are pointed out. Cool water, I'm afraid you are living in a fantasy land.

K.

I find it weird when someone like me speaks out against hate and promote peace between communities I get attacked and my posts voted down yet if I was to join in bashing other communities I would get praised and voted up. What is going on here?

Mostly it's because, for the last few days, you haven't been talking against hate but for stupidity, and when people do not agree with your views you have been accusing them of being hindustani agents or other nonsense.

Here's the thing that you seemed to have missed: when the Sikh Panth is attacked on a daily basis by Muslims and Hindus, it is for Muslims and Hindus to act and then ask for unity. It is rank cowardice and completely, pathetically naive for Sikhs to beg for unity when such attacks are still happening.

Do you want unity with Muslims? Then ask them to stop grooming young women from ALL communities not just the Sikh one, tell them to stop protecting muslim paedophile gangs, tell them to stop spreading their hateful lies about our Gurus and about Sikhi, tell them to quit killing innocent people in the name of Islam, and tell them to abandon sharia, a law that is dicriminatory against non-muslims. Until that happens, there is no point in talking about unity because it is clear that muslims want no such thing.

Do you want unity with Hindus? Then let them bring to justice all those people who were responsible for the rapes, the killings and the pillaging of Sikh communities. Let them stop their Hindutva propaganda about Sikhs being a subset of hinduism, let them recognise in law the separateness of the Khalsa Panth, and let them not stand in the way of a separate Sikh state. Until that happens, talk of unity is nothing but a joke.

Until people like you realise that there can be no unity unless the other side has shown - in actions and not just words - that unity is something that they want, Sikhs will continue to be taken advantage of by other communities.

K.

I think this thread has pretty much run its course and should be closed.

It's clear that Sikhs need to be more concerned about unity within the panth and increasing Sikhi parchar instead of worrying about making overtures towards other religions who will more than likely just use the opportunity to spread their own beliefs.

We have already done a great thing by protecting mosques when they were vulnerable. Perhaps it is now time for muslims to reflect and think about what they may do for unity and for the Sikh panth.

K.

I see a golden oppertunity to preach to Muslims via SangatTV to show them what our faith really teaches. Most Muslims i've spoken to in the past think we worship blue elephants or 10 Gods, how are they ever going to learn about Sikhi if we do not get them viewing the channel too. The clever thing about SangatTV for the past few days have managed to get a small section of the Muslim community seeing the channel, this way they can show what Sikhism is all about and how our community is. We live along side muslims in most british cities and it is better to preach unity and peace and show the spirit of Sikhism than preach hate and speratism and make them hate and attack our youth which in turn goes full circle with our youth attacking them. So we have to be wise and see the long term benefits of this new openess and unity.

And yes in Islam you do have those things hating on non-muslims but this is our strength no1 likes a hater, people like people who show goodness. If we can get Muslims to see what good we do for them too many will be drawn towards Sikhi. I know a few muslim converts, one an iranian one a pakistani former muslim girl. They dont convert to Sikhism because it preaches hate cos it dont, they convert because they are impressed by the goodness they see within the Sikh community.

That's a fair point.

I don't see much preaching to muslims though. So far all I see from the channel is capitulation to muslims for the sake of extra viewers and the abandonment of Sikh principles in the name of a mostly one-sided desire for unity.

If you want to preach to Muslims about the beauty of Sikhi, simply having someone dressed in a hijab on the channel isn't really going to do much. I know a few converts from Islam too, and they certainly didn't take up SIkhi because it was portryaed to them as being indistinguishable from Islam.

K.

Sat Sri Akal Ji

Can someone please tell me what the meaning of the word "raul" is?

Also, can you please explain this entire thing to me, as I'm unfamiliar with this. It sounds like you carry on your own private continual recitation of Japji Sahib in darbar sahib while the Akhand Paath is going on?

Also, thanks for mentioning the scarf the person reading wears-I never new the name and have been wondering. I saw a little bit of an Akhand Paath this Vaisakhi just gone and wondered why the reader had his mouth covered when he started reading. Thanks.

Gurfateh.

A raul refers to the 2 hour duty of a paathi continuously reading from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI or form the Jap Ji Sahib pothi during the Akhand Path.

You are correct. There is a simultaneous reading of Jap Ji Sahib in the Darbar Sahib while the Akhand Path is being conducted.

The paathis will usually cover their mouths to ensure that no beadby takes place with saliva during recitation falling on the angs.

You can find some more information about Akhand Paths here:

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/paths.html

(See the post above for more information about maryada in Punjabi).

K.

I dont agree with the bashing of the Hijabi lady or Muslims who have appeared on the channel. You guys are seem to be flying in the face of the spirit of unity and trying to stir up hate for no reason then you wonder why Muslims have the views they do. If you both act like a bunch of kids we will never get any peace, we will always be fighting each other. Sikhism's strong points is that it is pularistic, people are draw to it when we welcome people of all faiths, all castes and races into our community. But you idiots are acting like a bunch of morons who have forgotten the spirit of Sikhism and become tribal. We lose when we bash other commmunities as it goes against Sikhism and people dont want to look at the faith, we can do so much good by preaching to Muslims by the spirit of unity and peace.

How do you think so many muslims embraced Sikhism in the past? You uneducated low IQ non-sikh spirited guys are forever going on about Muslim guys converting our girls, look at yourselves you think anyone will convert to Sikhism with the way you go on?

As for SangatTV I think they should stay focused on Sikhism, if they drift to different and other area's of theology they will lose credibility with the community and judging by the viewers on justin.tv the fame of bham riots is already fading from 1,500 viewers just on justin.tv alone on one night to a mere 30 approx now. So they need to work hard to win back support from the Sikh community with relevant live discussions and programs.

Singh, are you seriously blaming the views that muslims have towards us on Sikhs? Do you not think that it perhaps has more to do with the quran about how kafirs need to be converted or pay dhimmi tax and "be humbled"?

This just seems another cynical attempt by Sangat TV to cash in with its new found popularity, this time by sucking up to its muslim viewers.

Since Sangat TV is a Sikh TV it would do better to promote Sikhi by having presenters in Sikhi roop, or at least Sehajdhari SIkhs who are educated in Sikhi and are not simply repeating the anti-Sikh propaganda of the GOI. All it is doing by having hijabed presenters on the channel is confusing people who already cannot tell the difference between Sikhs and Muslims, and we have already seen this result in the murder of innocent Sikhs in the States.

K.

Kaljug Singh

Of course there is an extremist element within the Islamic and Pakistani community, and I would never deny that. The Anjem Choudhary lot are a minority, I can assure you. I am anti-extremist just like you are, and dislike those who openly want to convert everyone in an aggressive manner.

These people are a minority. The vast majority of us just want to live peacefully and look after our families, just like the vast majority of the Sikh community.

Read the links to the news stories I posted regarding the kidnappings and forced conversions of non-muslim girls by muslims in Islamic countries. In every case, the kidnappers and rapists were supported by the muslim community and the parents had to battle againt police and a sharia-based court system which was actively engaged in preventing the girls being reunited with their families. in one case, only one of the kidnapped daughters was returned by the islamic court system! It's this kind of thing that suggests that these kinds of things are not seen to be the work of extremists in the international muslim community but a common theme. If anything they suggest that you are the minority rather than the majority.

If you truly want to live peacefully alongside the rest of the British public, I suggest you stop ignoring problems in the muslim and pakistani community, stop blaming the edl and the bnp when these crimes are committed by pakistani muslims and reported in the news, and start taking out the trash in your community.

K.