harjits4

http://www.bramptong...-kirpans-banned

The protesters were obviously blind to the deep dug hole that awaited them.

Lamba is just like some ravidasis iN london who took out a protest march in London after Vienna incident asking ban

on Kirpan.

It is just his personal opinion and does mean that this will happen.Better disregard views of such heretics

I enquired from my contact in Canada.

Lamba is not like Ravidassi. He is a jatt sikh and will be Governer General soon and he strongly believes that knives worn by Sikhs should be BANNED. They will be very soon banned. A knife is a knife is a knife. People who argue that one can kill with a bat also forget that 99% of people play with bats while 99% of people kill with knives.

Lamba, very rightly said that knives have no place in today's civil society. Only uncivilized people carry such weapons and use them. I also learnt that that Sukhwant Singh when he went to court, there was not even a single sikh to support him in the court and <banned word filter activated> didn't get bail also. Knife carrying criminals should be treated as criminals. Because of this mess in Toronto, in New York also, sikhs started getting catcalls.

Go to www.thestar.ca and search word "Sikh" and you will see glowing stories about Gobind Singh and obscenities he uttered in Dasam Granth. Read the comments from readers about banning the religious knife and you would know why Sikhs are the second most hated community in Canada. This is happening in largest newspaper of Canada. Way to go guys !

Admin Note: You are officially Banned from this forum. Attacking Amritdhari lifestyle & supporting anti-kirpan movement by anti-sikh elements are not allowed. You had 3 previous warnings.

Harjit ji,

That speech is still on the net - Sant Ji just rebukes some politician who says that Sikhs are outnumbered by using Guru Ji's line 'sava lake se ek lardaoun' - he said 1 Sikh could face 35 people, so we are not outnumbered. Listen to his other speeches as well, or speak to people who knew him - if you're in the UK, I can hook you up. The fact is that Sant Ji helped more Hindus than the govt ever did. ALL Punjabis were being discriminated against by the Centre, but sadly, only the Sikhs took up the challange to secure Punjab's rights.

The question of respecting Guru Sahib is beyond any Maryada. For us, Guru Ji is the living form of the 10 Gurus (and indeed, of the Bhagats) and all our respect comes from that fact. Guru Granth Sahib Ji does mention how a Guru should be respected, the rest comes from sharda.

There is more to the Ramanand saga than meets the eye - the case in Austria will be interesting. If you're in the UK, speak to Gyani Harjit Singh from Ravidas Gurudwara in Manor park, East London. He'll tell you the truth about Ramanand.

Matheen Ji:

Jai Gurudev Ji!

If based on what you say

"The question of respecting Guru Sahib is beyond any Maryada. For us, Guru Ji is the living form of the 10 Gurus (and indeed, of the Bhagats) and all our respect comes from that fact. Guru Granth Sahib Ji does mention how a Guru should be respected, the rest comes from sharda."

Than, if Guru Gobind Singh hadn't ordained GGS as final and living guru (which btw is disputed by some historians and some sikh groups themselves like Kukas, Naamdharis, Nirankaris etc.) than the respect given to GGS would not have been same. I would like to know in your words how Guru Should be respected as mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib?

I agree with you that rest comes from Shraddha and Shraddha is also a personal concept so why should not individual groups be not allowed to express their shraddha in their own manner as long as it doesn't violate GGS teachings.

In the same tone, if GGS says that "dust of feet of Saints/Gurus should be cherished) than should one follow what Sikh Mariada says in particular (no touching of anybody's feet before GGS) or should we follow what is mentioned in GGS?

Obviously, for the last few decades, Sikh mariada is being given more importance than message of bani itself. In other words, ritiualism has become more important than what bani really teaches because rituals are so easy to follow while living a virtuous life is so hard. This is the reason, the sinister minded people kill virtuous people because they fear their truthful living and see their "singhasans" or thrones shaking.

Sikhs have been so rigid on mariada primarily because they are realizing that other modes of following GGS is more attractive and meaningful (santmat). Following Saints doesn't make one weak or a docile human being.

It was not Bhinderwale but a peaceful Sant Kabir who said "Soora so pehchaniye Jo larre din ke haet" "Purza purza katt marre...".

Babbar Ji:

I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following:

"Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin"

"ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai"

I think it is not surprising to read your comments. Same half truths and twisted statements have caused you and your lot to declare 'seperate religion', you make the whole concept of religion laughable. Infact the statement about numbers should be an eyeopener for those who often boast about their 'numbers'. Communal Hindu leaders would threaten sikhs that there are infinte number of Hindus compared to Sikhs, to which they were replied their large numbers dont matter. In history the truthful have always suffered from less numbers. Take example of Bhagat Ravidas himself. Inspite of belonging to a large community, chamaars, he didnt have a mass following ever.

He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus.

Instead of lying blantatly it would be better if you could back up your claims with some evidence. Is this what you have learned from Dera Balan - to lie shamefully and do nindya and chugli of people? You often wail and shed crocodile tears over lies of Sikhs ! What about you? Do low castes have 'reservation' for lying too?

A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement.

Dont you have any shame and self respect? How can you use this word for our great guru? Mughals classified him as 'rebel'. It just proves your knowledge of history and general grasp of world affairs. Read up who is a terrorist and when the term was started.

He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today.

Guru Gobind Singh is present as Guru Granth sahib for us. Taking his example you should have preached your sant not to disrespect the saroop of Guru Gobind Singh by touching the rumalla with his feet. Whos example were dera Balan followers following when they created communal riots and damaged public property and cause a loss of 3000 crore? Did Bhagat Ravidas had a Dera? Did he incited his followers to act as goondas and burn public property and create communal riots? It were the chamaars who didnt regard him as a saint for centuries. And Guru Gobind Singh never visisted Harmandir sahib. It was Guru Tegh Bahadur who wasnt allowed by 'Non-Sikh mahants'. As i said before your history knowledge is ZERO.

As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill.

Bhindranwale wasnt arousing <edit> like you'. He preached only to Sikhs. I dont remember him giving any crumbs to people who had no love for Guru, especially those who have no faith in Sikh institutions. Did he disrespect any non-Sikh rituals and practises? Did he threaten your dera Balan? Beant Singh was a great shaheed of Sikh quam. And Bhindranwale died before him defending Akal Takht. By bringing caste into this you have once again shown your true colors.

Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families.

Any evidence? i say sant Ramanand was g@y and was going to die from @ids, but was saved from disgrace by getting killed. Bhagat Ravidas asked everyone to love God but Sant Ramanad <edit>

Yes, apnepart2, Bhinderwale didn't disrespect any other religion institutions. He merely ordered the person/group who didn't toe its line to be killed. If he had dared to disrespect any other religious institution, he would have been finished long before. He did speak openly about killing others. He was a smart and cunning operator and knew the mass mindset of punjab very well.

If I don't know much about Bhinderwale then you don't know much about Sant Rama Nand also. So both of us are in same boat. What you are basing your views are on stories read in such forums which openly endorse killing. I, at least, have heard Bhinderwale speaking himself. If Sant Rama Nand had been the character you describe him to be, people wouldn't have come out on streets in anguish. I know you complain lot about property damage. At least, those guys didn't engage in killing. Lot of looting of liquour shops was done by jatts of some villages who, believe it or not, joined hands with chamars etc.

-- Bhinderwale engaged in killing people for whatever reason while Sant Rama nand engaged in spreading peaceful mission of Guru Ravidass Ji

-- Bhinderwale ordered killing of ones who didn't toe his line while Sant Rama Nand respected the fdifferences.

-- Bhinderwale spread the message of hate while Sant Rama nand spread message of GGS.

-- Bhinderwale has armed guard protecting him god knows from what while Sant Rama Nand had no such luxury and believed in God and that everybody has his time.

-- People had a sigh of relief in Punjab when Bhinderwale was killed while people were drowned in sorrow when when Sant Rama Nand was killed

-- Bhinderwale was given funeral by state while Sant rama Nand was given state funeral.

Don't link me with Dera Ballan. I haven't been there even but I do agree with them for declaration of new religion.Supporting someone's action doesn't mean I am their follower.

Harjit, if you can't be bothered to learn the truth about Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, at least don't accuse them of stuff they didn't do. Did you listen to the entire speech and put it in context? Have you heard the rest of the speeches?

Show me the army report that says Sant Ji was shot while running away?! Immediately after, General Brar was recorded saying "they fought like lions" - the video is on Youtube somewhere. Please read the book by A.R. Darshi, a Hindu magistrate from Punjab. The link has been given, there no excuse for your ignorance now.

Answer one simple question: why do you (personally) follow religion, any religion?

Matheen, religion is everybody's personal matter. I follow religion for peace of mind, that's it. I don't follow it for magic, miracles. I follow religion and scriptures to get some answers for doubts in my mind. GGS has the right message but that message is unfortunately engulfed in code of conduct which forces you to think about code rather than the message in holy book. There is so much focus on rituals that message is secondary.

As far as people in Golden temple fighting like lions, even Talibans who are now kidnapping and killing sikhs are fighting like lions. A lot better and a superior lions as compared to so-called low class sikh lions who believe mostly in killing in cold blood inside gurudwaras or other public places and blasting bombs in cinema theatres.

As they say, "marta kya na karta". Army was not going to spare them any way. The sikh lions couldn't even face Punjab Police while Taliban lions are facing USA and allied forces. So don't live in la la land of so called sikh lions. They were rag tag group of militants poisoned by doctrine of hate and misplaced feeling of mistreatment of sikhs by others. No mistreatment of sikhs existed at that time. Water problems faced by a state should not be the reason to ask for a new country and kill hundreds and thousands in cold blood (whether sikhs lives or others).

One reader has asked what did Bhinderwale and Beant Singh gained for loosing their lives. My answer is same what Talibans are gaining now i.e zilch, zero, nothing.

rollingpunjab and others:

I did hear the full speech. I heard it many years ago and it was before Indira was killed so extra ordinary statements do stand out out and you remember. At that point, no specific mob violence was being committed against Sikhs by hindius. The normal stuff, he talked about, one doesn't remember after some time. He did preach specific killing of 35 hindus by each sikh. I don't know why 35 is the number but it was the number. The context was a strong statement made by Indira Gandhi to disarm Bhinderwale and his coterie. Well, the guy is finished so no point in talking about him. He is gone for good. I won't call him terrorist anymore. It is true that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. So let me give him some benefit of doubt for the time being and assume for the moment that some antisocial elements took advantage of his position and killed innocents.

Now I did discuss mariada of GGS as discussed by Singh and asked couple of questions for discussion but nobody has bothered to reply on that issue. Does it touch a raw nerve with you guys?

Here I am posting it again. The reason it is important because this has been the cause of trouble between Sikhs and other religious groups in Punjab, whichever they are.

"Singh Ji, I like your example of spitting. Let's extend it further. We followed the bani of Guru Granth Sahib and we addressed it as guru and we still respect it. When you address someone as guru, what is one supposed to do..? Yes, follow what guru says (I got this discussion from somewhere else, but it has weight). Now if my guru says, do xyz and I do abc, do you think my guru, irrespective of whether it is human or not, would like me or would be happy with me. Since I am not following his orders, guru will not like me even though I may taek him matha forever.

So if Guru Granth Sahib says that Saints should be respected and dust of their feet should be put on forhead (literaly similar is the wording in Guru Granth Sahib by Guru Nanak Dev Ji) and if this teaching has been imparted to me by my elders than what should I do? I touch the feet of Saints in presence of Guru Granth Sahib respectfully while keeping in mind that I am following message in Guru Granth Sahib. Where am I wrong...? You may bring in sikh Rehat Mariada but than if Guru Granth Sahib is a universal granth than why sikh Mariada is forced upon groups who are not sikhs. It is my belief that everybody should be allowed to have their own mariada as long as it jives well with teachings in Guru Granth Sahib. So this spitting example that you gave will fail in the case of beadbi because nothing such is attributed to in Guru Granth Sahib and in general it is a mark of disrespect, while respecting Saints in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is merely follwing the message of Guru Granth Sahib an touching feet is respect.

Naamdhari (kukas) also touch the feet of their gurus in presence of Guru Granth Sahib. "

And I am not a Ballan follower etc. I haven't been there. I have no obligation or mission to preach their theory. But like millions of other ravidassias in India and abroad, I respect their call for Ravidassia Religiona and their community work.

Does mariada or mode of respect of GGS comes from GGS or should it be man made like Sikh Rehat mariada (SRM)? IF SRM id for Sikhs than what for others? Should others not follow GGS? If it is SRM that everybody needs to follow when GGS is kept there than good riddance from GGS. No wonder that every religious group in Punjab (latest Ravidassia) is getting rid of GGS from their gurudwaras gradually.

You agree or not, sikhs have to blame themselves for lot of troubles. Firstly, you know Punjab is 42% scheduled caste and treatment of SCs in Punjab by Sikhs is not very far from the treatment metted out to them in Up or elsewhere. This was the reason, majority of SCs didn't vote for Punjabi sooba because they knew that if sikhs have their way, SCs will suffer more. In spite of GGS, punjab still has lot of "bandhak" majdoors.

Punjabi reduced to ashes was the outcome of non-sikh punjabi choose to vote against punjabi language. Majority of Hindus from all punjabi cities voted against punjabi language even though they speak,write and live on punjabi language in their daily life. This is not only betrayal to their daily neighbor Sikhs but to their own mother tongue, heritage, tradition and history. I don't know the situation of scheduled caste but as far i know that Sikhism is the only religion that offers equality to all human regardless of caste, sex, age and nationality. So the Schedule caste voting against punjabi means they sided with hindus who you and me knows that they treats them really bad as their religion justify the concept untouchables. So the above is just theory hatched by non-sikhs to defame sikhs of punjab. All points doesn't add up at all. Sikhs during 60's/70's were much better in sikh rehat which means them treating non-jatts unequal shows another biased fake made up story by fake scholars/historians.

How can you succeed in Punjab in getting your way when you are fighting against Ravidassia religion who you should join hands with. How can you mistreat 42% of Punjab population which is financially more or less quite strong now. You would have Khalistan right at Independence, if Master Tara Singh and his stooges had allowed Ambedkar to bring in millions of untouchables into Sikh fold. Please read "Sachi Sakhi" by Kapoor Singh, famous Sikh Historian.

What Ambedkar did is certainly not allowed in Sikhism. In Sikhi, everybody can come and go and there is no formality or special occasion to attract other community to be part of us. We don't believe in recruiting members of other religions nor offer any scheme or special offers to anyone to come and be part of sikh dharam. Anybody can come and go in our religion as their wish. We have open door policy. If Dr. Ambedkar wanted to be part of sikhism then he should have done it independently and on his own and only IF he was very sure in sikh rehat and agrees with the principles of sikhi. He never came to sikhi fold shows that he was not spiritually interested but more like politically. There is no restriction for anyone and all are welcome just like darabar sahib got 4 doors to welcome ppl from all communities. Maybe this is the reason why most of the punjab's scheudled caste are Sikhs because they feel welcome to sikhi without any barrier. The only thing left undone is that the current parchar of SGPC failed to nourish those and other souls to be firm in sikh rehat and due that void, ppl including scheduled caste went to dera vaad.

Khalistan was never the concept of Sikhs is 60's or 70's. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale always said on record and off record that "We don't want Khalistan" "Our demand is not Khalistan, but if they give it us then we will take it."

What did we get in return? A murder of Saint who brought numerous into folds of GGS. You go to some Guru Ravidass temples and they stop anybody who wears gathra now. How can one justify the killing with your concept of beadbi which has nothing to do with GGS and is a recent phenomenon.

Let me make this clear... If i come to your dera today and then i spit on your guru sant and do beasti of your guru.. Would you sit idle? or would you stand up and face me? I know you would stand up against me and face me with full force because of your full dedicated and piyar towards your guru or your human sant. Same thing with vienna, You guru or sant was doing baedgi of guru granth sahib ji and that was presented in Austria case. Statements from your community and from my community was taken and it is CLEARLY known that your sant was doing beadbe of Guru Granth Sahib jee by first rubbing rumalla on his feet and then on guru granth sahib ji. That is the truth whether you agree or it. The person who wanted to stop was attacked and burned down and taken to hospital in critical condition. Friends of that guy came down and took care of that situation. Sikhs never attack first and what happened in Vienna is the result of false modern practice adopted by your deceased guru. Who suffered the most? Who are the victims? My people suffered the most. Singhs died, they are in coma and many are in jails without any moral/financial/physical support to them. Nobody want to take panga such huge and that too when living as immigrant in foreign nation unless very serious is involved and that is the beadbe of our 11th Guru Granth Sahib ji. Your sant died because he and his group was involved in wrong practice. Your people damaged millions of dollars property in Punjab to satisfy their rage. Your people get Chartered Flight from Punjab Government and VIPS stooges to receive @ Delhi Airport. And then at the end you are saying.. "You are the Victim?"

Hindus do not treat untouchables equally and that is the fact for the past thousand year or so? You think hard core member of that religion will feel happy knowing that Sikhs treat untouchables like their brother and sister and they are fully allowed to take any post in religious category? Would you think what other developed countries would generally think of hindus? Racist, KKK, Nazis will be the term used to identify the method adopted by brahmins of mis-treating lower caste ppl. These hard core groups will try their best to defame sikhs either by some political stooge or give unlimited power to some dera (Ram Rahim etc..) to create invisible wall between lower caste group and general Sikhs.

Sikhs are liberal and their rehat is very easily reachable by anyone. Just because some bad apples stop any community to particpate doesn't mean that one should leave sikhism. Spiritual connection is not supposed to be that weak ! Only weaker connection will go away and that is their karam. I am not sure about ravidassi group or chamar group but from the area i belong too (Gurdaspur); we have mazabi group and they have very strong link with sikhi. Yes, dera were created such as beas and others to take them away from sikhi but still sizeable good amount of mazabi are firm sikhi. Though i completely do not believe in groupism but i have to use some examples in this reply..

Singh Ji, I like your example of spitting. Let's extend it further. We followed the bani of Guru Granth Sahib and we addressed it as guru and we still respect it. When you address someone as guru, what is one supposed to do..? Yes, follow what guru says (I got this discussion from somewhere else, but it has weight). Now if my guru says, do xyz and I do abc, do you think my guru, irrespective of whether it is human or not, would like me or would be happy with me. Since I am not following his orders, guru will not like me even though I may taek him matha forever.

So if Guru Granth Sahib says that Saints should be respected and dust of their feet should be put on forhead (literaly similar is the wording in Guru Granth Sahib by Guru Nanak Dev Ji) and if this teaching has been imparted to me by my elders than what should I do? I touch the feet of Saints in presence of Guru Granth Sahib respectfully while keeping in mind that I am following message in Guru Granth Sahib. Where am I wrong...? You may bring in Sikh Rehat Mariada but than if Guru Granth Sahib is a universal granth than why Sikh Mariada is forced upon groups who are not Sikhs. It is my belief that everybody should be allowed to have their own mariada as long as it jives well with teachings in Guru Granth Sahib. So this spitting example that you gave will fail in the case of beadbi because nothing such is attributed to in Guru Granth Sahib and in general it is a mark of disrespect, while respecting Saints in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is merely follwing the message of Guru Granth Sahib an touching feet is respect.

Naamdhari (kukas) also touch the feet of their gurus in presence of Guru Granth Sahib.

As far as that rumala incident is concerned, it is a lie and rumour spread around by some chamar wanabe sikhs who do these kind o things to incite real sikhs. What may have happened is that someone may have taken rumala to the Saints after bowing before Guru Granth Sahib and than bowed down before saints while keeping rumala on side and than put it on Guru Granth Sahib. The keeping it aside of rumala may have been more of a convenience while bowing down rather than touching it with the feet. Anyway, I have inquired about it and such a thing didn't happen. On a side note, on the very basic level, if the sikhs have understanding that wherever Guru Granth Sahib is kept, Sikh Maraiada should be forced than I am afraid there would be trouble. It is something that sikhs have to decide. Alternatively, if mariada is driven from the bani in Guru Granth Sahib itself than none of these issues of beadbi have any meaning.

Interestingly, al this beadbi nonsense started around 70s,80s when Bhinderwala came on the scene. So it looks like that the poision spread by Bhinderwale and his cronies is much responsible for such an atmosphere in Punjab. Before 70s, everything was peaceful. Guru Granth Sahib was respected more than it is now. You will have to agree with that.

I am sorry, whatever you may say or believe, Sikhs have no one to blame except themselves for the turmoil they are in, and have been in since 70s... They started the mess and obviously opportunists are always there to cash on it.

harjit you really need a history lesson, especially when it comes to sant ji. for crying out loud my 15 year old brother knows more about sant jarnail singh bhindranwale that you do.

Babbar Ji:

I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following:

"Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin"

"ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai"

He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus. A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement. He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today.

As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill. These people remain behind the scenes and make low castes fight for them instead. Same people send their children to Canada, USA, UK and get children of other poor sikhs killed in the name of khalistan or punjabi sooba etc.

Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families.

Mod note: You've been given a warning for calling a Sant a criminal despite a complete lack of evidence on your part.

Singh Ji,

your response is fine. If Anandpur Sahib resolution is the only bottleneck then hell go for it.

If Ravidassia can have their own religion than why can't Sikhs have it. It is a different issue that ravidassia are very large in number but that is immaterial.

Harjit ji,

It is not that simple. Sikhs are very simple and they want simple demand without strings attached such as "Declare Amritsar as Holy city just like govt declased haradwar as holy city", Sikh asked for seperate radio for darbar sahib live kirtan, one or two train name should be in the name of sikhs and other such simple demands. Sikhs did not become hard core overnight but it took decades for us begging in front of India for our simple demands but instead we were reduced to ashes. Promotions of Sikh professors, doctors stopped in 70's because of vast discrimination. Water/Dam rights were taken away from Punjab. According to constitution, every state has their own rights over their resources be it water or coal etc except punjab.

We have been fighting for normal rights diplomatic peaceful way but of to no available. Instead they labeled us as "Fanatics" "ISI" and reduced punjab size and took away its capital and its language. No media did coverage of this because of controlled media and tv channel by government. Anyway it is long story but i would encourage you to read books and you will see whats been happening to us for the past 6 decades.

Read this e-book Gallant Defender by AR Darshi. It is not written by Sikh author.

Harjit Ji:

You agree or not, sikhs have to blame themselves for lot of troubles. Firstly, you know Punjab is 42% scheduled caste and treatment of SCs in Punjab by Sikhs is not very far from the treatment metted out to them in Up or elsewhere. This was the reason, majority of SCs didn't vote for Punjabi sooba because they knew that if sikhs have their way, SCs will suffer more. In spite of GGS, punjab still has lot of "bandhak" majdoors.

How can you succeed in Punjab in getting your way when you are fighting against Ravidassia religion who you should join hands with. How can you mistreat 42% of Punjab population which is financially more or less quite strong now. You would have Khalistan right at Independence, if Master Tara Singh and his stooges had allowed Ambedkar to bring in millions of untouchables into Sikh fold. Please read "Sachi Sakhi" by Kapoor Singh, famous Sikh Historian.

Sikhs of the times were commenting to the like "Ki hun harmandir sahib choorayan chamaran nun de dayiye". This was their mentality than and almost same is now. They were worried about Ambedkar taking over their plush positions. Gandhi had nothing to do with it, as many sikhs claim.

I don't have to emphasize, how much low castes have contributed to survival and spread of sikhism. What did we get in return? A murder of Saint who brought numerous into folds of GGS. You go to some Guru Ravidass temples and they stop anybody who wears gathra now. How can one justify the killing with your concept of beadbi which has nothing to do with GGS and is a recent phenomenon.

One has to think why these problems didn't exist Pre bhinderwale period. Sikhism was spreading faster than and had high profile and you go outside of Punjab, if a sikh is sitting in a bus, nobody would smoke. But now, people smoke and put smoke on sikhs' face and if he objects, he is slapped and is told "Yo haryana sae, Punjab nahin".

What has sikhs gained by so much turmoil? What is it that sikhs wanted to be fixed? Why this beadbi mess didn't exist till Bhinderwale came..? Was GGS less respected than now...?

In my opinion, this all resulted out of politics. Sikhs had become very strong financially and started believing that they can have their own country and it doesn't take much in Punjab to instigate people on religious basis and Bhinderwale did just that to achieve what he believed in.

This is my last post on this topic...

Harjit,

Advice for you: Read this e-book Gallant Defender by AR Darshi. It is not written by Sikhs nor by any jatt whom you hate.

guys,

If you guys feel that I am hijacking the topic of killing of innocents sikhs than I will keep quiet. My purpose was only to bring a different viewpoint to it i.e. from the perspective of someone who suffered the same way as you are suffering now and I don't wish you that.

It is natural for me to have hate for those who killed innocents in Vienna but I should not let my hate be an obstacle for grieving process that sikhs are going through.

Serious flaws in your reply:

1. All transportation business in india was controlled by Sikhs

Trucking is hard job and it is not for anyone. Only hard working person can do this job. Truckers are very tough ppl. Sikh race is tough and we believe in concept of Sant Sipahi. So trucking industry is not granted to us by government or by anyone. It is the hard work of Sikhs who are good in this line of work.

2. Almost whole army was controlled by sikhs

Easy to say but it is also Sikhs who laid their life for india's freedom. Less than 2% of the total india population participated more than 70% of India's freedom movement. By participation, i meant - hanged/shot/dead/war

3. Almost whole medico bsuiness was managed by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills and guru jees blessing of helping needy.

4. Everywhere in India sikhs were addressed as "Sardar Ji"

Because Sikhs bought them freedom both from Mughals and British.

5. many of the corporations were managed by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills

6. Sikhs in movies were always portrayed as good characters

Yeh right !

7. The water issue could have been resolved with simple means

Veerji, You don't even have any clue of what type of hell my fathers/grandfather been thru? Read this section: http://sikhyouth.com...es/water-rights

8. All auto business in Delhi and elsewhere was controlled by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills

9. Sikhism was viewed as a pristine religion

No doubt in that..

10. As far as identity is concerned, those changes could have been brought about in time. At the time of constitution development, the mindset that exists today didn't exist.

Demand is present for the past 40 years and yet no action. Read Anandpur Sahib resolution.

Singh Ji,

your response is fine. If Anandpur Sahib resolution is the only bottleneck then hell go for it.

If Ravidassia can have their own religion than why can't Sikhs have it. It is a different issue that ravidassia are very large in number but that is immaterial.

Here we go again..

How would you feel when someone come to your house and taunt you that you are HINDU not sikh as per hindu marriage act.

How would you feel when your mother tongue Punjabi taken away as prime language and treated as 3rd class language in front of you (guru angad dev ji promoted/created gurmukhi).

How would you feel when water rights taken away from your family?

How would you feel if your neighbor harassed your family members and local police is being biased and supporting them just because they are from same religion?

How would you feel if the local/national media is spreading false rumors about your house, your family, your privacy to the rest of the world (name callings & all other dirty professions)?

Harjit, you need to take some history lessons and on top of that you need to stay calm when replying. We know that you have grudge against Anandpur Sahib Resolution and majority of sikhs but don't be angry and i am sure whatever religion you follow teaches you to stay calm (full CAPS reply means you are jumping thru the roof). It also seems like you follow biased media news. Instead of following news, ppl, friends, relatives, family, dera blindly you need to use your own dimag to figure out stuff. But dimag without knowledge is also devils playground. So first step for you is to learn some basic books to get the knowledge and then come up to debate with others.

Hijacking beheading of innocent young sikhs of peshawar issue to pacify your ego or your hatred against sikh struggle movement is selfish act. If you want to discuss the struggle of 50's/70's/80's then open up a new thread.

Bhaji, I have nothing against sikh movement for equality. But you have to look at the facts too. First let me say, I hate killing of innocents and I hope those talibans who did the killing drown in their own blood and suffer for time immortal.

Now as far as "injustices" to sikhs were concerned, where was the injustice when:

1. All transportation business in india was controlled by Sikhs

2. Almost whole army was controlled by sikhs

3. Almost whole medico bsuiness was managed by sikhs

4. Everywhere in India sikhs were addressed as "Sardar Ji"

5. many of the corporations were managed by sikhs

6. Sikhs in movies were always portrayed as good characters

7. The water issue could have been resolved with simple means

8. All auto business in Delhi and elsewhere was controlled by sikhs

9. Sikhism was viewed as a pristine religion

10. As far as identity is concerned, those changes could have been brought about in time. At the time of constitution development, the mindset that exists today didn't exist.

You can attribute all above to hard work of sikhs and that is true but in the same tone, it doesn't reflect that sikhs were grossly discriminated as you claimed or their rights were snatched.

The issues that you are claiming are post khalistan movement.

harjits4

for your kind info sikhs did not lay claim to quran to form another faith and neither any fake sikh baba disrespected quran like your sant did. matheen can you not ban this guy when they dont allow any non-chamaar into their mandirs. Please it is my humble request put this racist bigots account under moderation before he destroys this thread with his hatred for non-chamaars and people who are good looking. Thanks.

apnepart2, I am not spreading hatred. I can empathize with you and the anger of sikhs. I don't need to hijack the thread. You people will make grandiose statements on this killing while it is their families who have to suffer.

My only comment is such killing is always justified by those who commit them in the same way you justify the killings of Saints. Everybody is allowed in our mandirs. You are welcome. Please come to Buta Mandi any time.

Don't be desperate to ban me, I am just showing you guys the mirror. I condemn this killing as I know how a mother, wife and children of those killed feel. I was in the thick of anti sikh violence in India and my best friends were all sikhs.

TIll date, no justice have been given to poor sikhs of tirlokpuri delhi because all of them were low caste sikhs. Those killed in Delhi were not sandhus, sidhus, dhillons etc. They were either mochis, blacksmiths, rikshawwalas. Whether you like what I say or not but this is the truth. Everybody in your sikh religion also wanted those leftovers to disappear somehow. Aren't you surprised that nothing has happened yet to those who committed violence?

So many on this site promote force and terror to settle the disputes whatsoever that sikhs have with other religions. You people rejoice in killing of innocents by Sikh terrorists.

................., as you justify the killing of innocents by your Sikh terrorist brothers?

.................. when your Sikh terrorist brothers kill innocents.

Can you provide evidence of your outrageous claims?

When have Sikhs killed innocents and when have we rejoiced in this?

Look forward to your reply.

ALL DURING KHALISTAN MOVEMENT IN INDIA WHILE TAKING INNOCENTS OF A PARTICULAR RELIGION OFF THE BUS AND KILLING THEM OR KILLING SIKHS WHO DIDN'T TOE THEIR LINE.

LATEST IS KILLING OF SANT RAMA NAND RIGHT IN GURUDWARA IN VIENNA, AUSTRIA. NOW DON'T TELL ME HE DID BEADBI AND DESERVED THIS, BECAUSE TERRORISTS ALWAYS HAVE JUSTIFICATION AS THEY HAVE IN THIS CASE.

SINCE THEIR RELIGION SAYS JAZIA MUST BE PAID BY NON MUSLIMS, THEN IS THE KILLING JUSTIFIED AS YOU JUSTIFY THE KILLINGS DONE BY YOUR BROTHERS?

TERRORISTS SUPPORTERS ARE LIKE MOTHERS OF EVIL. YOUR SIKH BROTHERS STABBED INNOCENTS IN GURUDWARA AND TOOK A 7 YEAR OLD GIRL HOSTAGE AND USED GATRAS FOR KILLING.

THAT'S WHY SIKH TERRORISTS ARE SAME AS TALIBAN THOUGH A LOT CHEAPER AND LOW GRADE VERSION.

this is for S1ngh veer from the other post

You are right... Badala Ta Lai Sakde ne... When Taliban asked for Jaiza and burnt down Sikh shops and houses, did anyone take Badala.... Sikhs in Pakistan and especially those who do have arms need to take Badala... these days when taliban go around looting, killing they don't openly go they do it when it is safe.... In 80's when Singhs made a hit they didn't always do it openly and planned it.

You are welcome to go there and take badla. Rather than finding a solution where more killing can be stopped, people like you are utterring nonsense. Talibans are fighting us, uk and other forces and still not controllable while your khalistan fighters couldn't even take on punjab police.

So who do you think gain in badla of nonequals? This is not time of Ranjit Singh or Hari Singh Nalwa.

Khalsa Panth needs to confront Taliban!

they need to be thought a lesson.

Well may be the time is getting closer.

One day the Khalsa will succeed in getting rid of the Taliban.

The taliban has done enough bad deeds over the past years, but they have taken it a step too far, and that is to mess with Sikhs, it is one which they will regret, that's if they are still alive by then, and have not become extinct.

Akkaall hee akaaaalll.

It is so sad that peacel loving sikhs were killed. They were just spending their lives like many other common men and women who lead their daily lives in a peaceful manner and their lives were snatched by terrorism.

So many on this site promote force and terror to settle the disputes whatsoever that sikhs have with other religions. You people rejoice in killing of innocents by Sikh terrorists.

Well guys, how does it feel when terrorists kill your own...?

Do you feel the shame?

Do you feel like rejoicing now and calling terrorists "taliban soorma" or "taliban shahids", "great taliban" ?

Can you now somehow justify the kiiling of innocent sikhs based on Taliban's religion and process of taking "jazia" as Aurangzeb used to do, as you justify the killing of innocents by your Sikh terrorist brothers?

The feeling of pain and anger you are feeling right now, is same that is felt by others when your Sikh terrorist brothers kill innocents.

How do you claim that Khalsa will succeed in getting rid of Taliban when both of them commit and believe in religion based violence, force their will on others and commit terrorism. Both sikh terrorists today and Taliban kill those who don't toe their line and kill holy men of their own faith and other faiths. Talibans are your alter ego. They are you and you are them. People on this forum who support or justify terrorist activities by sikhs are basically Talibans.

At this point in history, there is absolutely no difference between Talibans and your Sikh terrorist brothers.

Actually you people are worse. They dumped the heads in gurudwara while your terrorist brothers kill right in gurudwara. Where did honor of Sikh talibans go when they kill in gurudwara? Shame shame.

May the killing of innocents In Pakistan bring some positive change in your attitude and let you see some sense even though I doubt that. May almighty not let their deaths go in vain.

Sikh religious organisations, including the SGPC, that have been opposing the idea of a separate granth for Ravidassias have got support from unexpected quarters in the Vishwa Guru Ravidass Mission. The Canada division of the mission has not only condemned the creation of the separate granth, but has also sought the restoration of the old maryada at Benaras-based Seer Govardhanpur shrine by holding parkash of Guru Granth Sahib.

Vehemently supporting the existing religious set-up, wherein parkash of Guru Granth Sahib was held at Guru Ravidass and other gurdwaras, mission's Canada wing president Sital Dass Kaler has said that the recent announcement pertaining to the separate granth for Ravidassias has left society divided. "Such an act has hurt the sentiments of all. I want to ask the Dera Ballan Trust as to whether deras and other religious places are to connect people or to separate them in the name of religion. How can we shun bani like this?" he said in a letter sent to the SGPC.

"The main religious shrine of Seer Govardhanpur does not belong to one dera or an organisation, but it is a religious place for all. We want that the community should not get torn apart and that the old maryada should be restored at Govardhanpur shrine," said Sital Dass Kler.

Vishav Guru Ravidass Mission is a one man mission in Canada managed by a nutcase named Sital Dass Klair and he calls if Vishav, very funny. His comments carry no weight amongst Ravidassias. This nutcase loves media attention and nobody thinks highly of this guy. SGPC aligning with such nutcases would only harm themselves. Why is SGPC against new granth? It should be happy that Ravidassias will not insist sikhs to address Ravidass as Guru. Sital Dass Klair should join sikhism if he is against the Guru Ravidass Amrit Bani and call himself Sital Singh Klair.

Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji:

Q1.

Then

how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...?

Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...?

How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ?

Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium?

Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru?

Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..?

Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Q2.

Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.?

Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...?

Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine.

Read my earlier post having no knowledge about Sikhi and its doctrine. Your arguments just show your level of education about Sikh relgiion.

So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him.

How stupid can anyone get? Admin a few days ago a member was banned for uttering rubbish about Akal Takht Sahib, why is this guy who is doing baseless nindya of Guruji still a member?

apnepart2, I just responded to kuthaman statement that casteism existed in sikhism in older rehat mariadas. As far as Guru Gobind Singh is concerned, why is it taken as an insult. Anyone who is cornered in war has every right and any able general will use whatever resources available to fight tyranny. He sacrificed his whole family and that is indication of his committment. If you are in a war, you would do the same. During his times also, many jatts,khatris asked guruji why you enlisted these low castes? That's when he answered "enhin ke bane hum hain nahin to mo se hazar crore pare" i.e I am made by or I survive through these low castes otherwise there are thousands or crores like me. He himself stated that low castes are his savior. You may know that jatts had deserted guru gobind singh because he couldn't pay them as he had run out of money during war. Guru Gobind Singh being a khatri knew foolishness of jatts very well and that's the reason he addressed Jatts as "Jatt-boot".

Please only criticize my statements after conformation. Guru Gobind Singh was a unique personality who sacrificed his family for a cause and low castes sacrificed their lives for him and his family. What low castes got in return from sikhs? murder and opression.

apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

Bhagats Bani was not added out of respect as you seem to think so. This shows your level of understanding of Sikh religion and it's doctrines.

How Bhagat Bani got in SGGS is not exactly known, Guru Nanak having collected it just an assumption drawn from his wide travels. How the Bani of Bhagats is in Gurmukhi in sggs when most of them had nothing to do with Punjabi is also mystery for which every historian has his own theory. The exact life details of Bhagats esp. Ravidas and Kabir are really not known and depend upon traditional stories. One such story is how the souls of Bhagats came and requested Guru Arjan to include their work in SGGS when he started compiling SGGS, and the party was lead by Kabir not Ravidas.

As for Kabir panthis, their granth is very different from SGGS. There is a wide range of differences between Bijak's content and those of SGGS in vocabulary, spellings, language, overall message etc. Similar and exact are two different things. SGGS is not a cut and paste job as you think so. That is why cuting and pasting of Bhagat Bani cannot be allowed from SGGS.

Can i ask you a question

You quote Kabirpanthis. They have their own Granth which is not similar to SGGS in any way. Why don't you follow them a produce a granth of Bhagat Ravidas and then compare with SGGS? Why the cut and paste job? Didn't Bhagat ravidas leave any Granth behind? Why don't you provide the origins of the manuscripts you are talking about and present their contents here.

apnepart2, to answer your question, even though bijak is not similar as GGS, lot of bani from bijak has been added to GGS. As for providing you the manuscripts for Guru ravidass Ji's bani, I have all the documented information from it but based on your highly uneducated response regarding reasons and mode of inclusion of bhagats bani, I doubt your have the intelligence to appreciate what I would show you. In other words, fools should not be explained and wise need not be explained. I have put you in first category.

Now your mode of inclusion of bhagats bani. Are you telling me that Guru Nanak used to carry bhagat's bani around for no reason and just collected it during travels. This is stupid. Now let me enlighten you a little bit.

Guru Nanak requested bani from bhagats and he used to sing it with bala and mardana and janam sakhis of guru nanak state that (which are even older than GGS). Secondly Guru Arjun Dev Ji didn't get any dreams or anything. He got it compiled and some of the compilers were reluctant to add bahagats bani because of low caste. Guru Arjun dev made it clear that, GGS will not finish without this bani because it was dhur ki bani that Guru Nanak had collected from bhagats. In fact, Guru Nanak said in his teachings "Bhagtan ki bani sachhi bani" i.e bani of bhagats is the true bani. Guru Nanak repeatedly mentioned that he has learnt at the feet of bhagats.

Now as far as gurmukhi is concerned, it was not invented by Bhai Gurdas. It existed before. Guru Ravidass says in his bani a couplet "bed bidh chontis akhar mahain" i.e name of god can't be explained in 34 letters of the language. There was also a litigation in Lahore before independence which proved that gurmukhi as it is called today was started by Guru Ravidass and not Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas learned it. He was not an inventor of any language. He was user. It doesn't reduce the contribution of Bhai Gurdas though.

BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Q. 1.

Each letter of Gurbani is our Guru. Where Bani Is contained it is the Body of Our Guru So Both.

Q.2.

With regards to marayada for Guru Granth Sahib it is the more or so the maryada followed since 1604 (Today satkaar for bani has decreased marayada then was more stictly followed). Guru Arjan Devji gave up his bed for The bani and used to sleep on the floor.

Guru is for the world. But if satkaar is not present it is the duty of the Sikhs of the Guru to stop beadbi . So salute to the singhs in Vienna.

Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji:

Q1.

Then

how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...?

Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...?

How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ?

Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium?

Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru?

Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..?

Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Q2.

Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.?

Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...?

Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

Your criticizing Rahit in order to justify the existence of Ravidassia faith? The oldest Rahits date back to the time of the Gurus and they are fairly similar. The 1920's Rahit which you talked awayed stripped away the casteism that you are opposed to. One of the oldest Rahits is Gyan Ratnvali by Bhai Mani Singh. Also, Have you heard of Gyani Ditt Singh? He was one of the most active members of the Singh Sabha movement, and one its most important leaders. Here is a bio http://www.sikh-hist.../dittsingh.html

Thanks Kuthaman Ji:

I didn't criticize Rahit anywhere. It is fine for sikhs and I have no reason to criticize it as it is for a sikhs. I just pointed out the timeframe of 1920s.

Now you ave an interesting comment that Rahints existed at the time of Guruji also and 1920 Rahit did away with casteism. So it is true that Rahits before at the time of Gurus had casteim in it. So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him. So it was not a love for equality but for a need of the hour that lower castes fell for khalsa concept. It is also not surprising that merely removing casteism from Rahits hasn't affected casteism in sikhism as it happened recently in 1920s.

Many a times, even Indian scholars are flabbergasted as to why casteism is still rampant in sikhism despite the teachings. Now you know that it was very well entrenched in papers even during gurus times. No wonder why some comment that all gurus were Kshatrias and none of them married out of castes and after initial some gurus, gurudom was essentially kept in the family. So if gurus couldn't/wouldn't erase castesim why would its subjects.

This is a general feeling amongst dalits that castesim was truly hated only during the time of Guru Nanak Dev ji to Guru Arjun Dev ji. afterwards, it was merely considered to be phenomenon to be swept under carpet.

Well, we do learn something in forums.

BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

harjits4, as I pointed out earlier, it is likely a good move that Dera Ballan take their own path as clearly they were disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Although it is strange that they want to now wish to disregard the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they have used for years to amass their wealth and following. Thankfully, they do not speak for the Ravidass community at large and it appears from some reports that not for all their followers either.

Also as pointed out in another post, the bani of the Bhagats you have named is unique to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not cut and paste as your Dera Ballan intend too.

In respect of violence, I do not know exactly what took place in Vienna although I am aware that Dera Ballan leaders have continuously disrespected Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji dispite requests to refrain from doing so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was and never has been used as a reason to murder and being as you are on a Sikh forum, I would suggest you control your fingers when you type such things. Apart from hearing abour Ramanand, I was not at Vienna nor have I heard anything about the 'allegations' you are making. However you seem to overlook that your own Dera Ballan followers didn't seem to have any problem whilst commiting violence, rioting and looting as well as burning the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that contains the bani of Bhagat Ravidass. It is evidence of 'hatred' rather than disrespecting 'rituals'. I would suggest that blame falls squarely on the Dera Ballans leaders.

It is clear that you are only this forum to stir up conflict.

BigChann,

Jai Gurudev !

if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer.

By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way..

Q. 1.

a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ?

b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)?

Q.2

a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ?

b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...?

Regards,

Harjit Singh

You are forgetting you are on a Sikh forum and casting doubt on Guru Nanak is mischief that cannot be forgiven. As for your claims on ownership of Bani can you provide where does the bani of Bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib exists elsewhere? All Bani in SGGS, regardless the author, is ONE NIRANKAR GODS BANI and anybody taking it out from SGGS is asking for *. Sikhs cannot allow any Dera to take Bani out of SGGS, Bani of Bhagat Ravidas in Guru Granth Sahib never existed elsewhere so obviously the ownership rests with Sikhs as a whole. You cannot take Bani of Sikhs and form another religious book on base of it. If Bhagats Bani in SGGS existed as a Granth during his lifetime and he had a faithful following centered around it, then you are welcome to go ahead. But the Bani of all Bhagats in SGGS is found in SGGS only, and how it got in SGGS is known to Gurus and Bhagats, who chose to remain their Bani in SGGS only. As you type, one of your sant associated with Dera has rejected the move to take Bani from Guru Granth Sahib and forming a granth.

What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani

All Bani of SGGS is not found elsewhere. Everything originates from SGGS. All writings outside SGGS are regarded by Sikhs as 'kachi bani' and Sikhs dont care what is done with it.

As far as taking bani out of GGS is concerned, GGS is a compilation.

You are on Sikh forum and are talking about our living father. So behave yourself.

apnepart2,

Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ?

Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out.

Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true?

How can Dera condemn when the acts of violence are being done by the dera itself? Number of Ravidasi places of worship had sought police protection as Dera men had made threatening calls to remove Guru Granth Sahib. The major people arrested include memebrs of Punjab BSP. Dera has no right to take bani of Bhagat Ravidas from Guru Granth Sahib as the Granth is the only main source of Bani included in it. If they want to establish seperate faith they should get Bani of Bhagat Ravidas from somewhere else. Why don't they try getting it from Bhagat Ravidas via their Guru? They have no right to take bani from Guru Granth Sahib on the pretext that its author was Chamaar. That is direct attack on Sikhi. If you dont want to follow rehat of Sikhs then how can you take their Bani and form another faith from it? Get your own Bani not from Guru Granth Sahib.

Sahib ji, Dera doesn't instigate anybody to commit violence. When some unrest happens, for example when sikhs also commit act of violence in punjab and that is very often happening, we can't blame that violence on gurus or on teachings of gurus. People have their own brains.

When unrest like the one happened, all the people who feel discriminated, whether they are weavers, chamars, valmikis etc., react. In fact, you would be surprised to know, dera followers are the most docile. But since dera is in news and violence happens, so dera's name is there.

As far as taking bani out of GGS is concerned, GGS is a compilation. if Guru Nanak took it from somewhere than why won't us. Ownership questions doesn't exist because Guru Ravidass wrote it. Nobody has ownership of compilation. Everybody has ownership of their own content.

To the best of my knowledge, Bhagat Ravidass Ji did not form a religion in his name whereas 'sab sikhan nu hukam hai, guru manio granth'. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji installed Guruship to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji themself. Are leaders at Dera Ballan saying they are on par with Bhagat Ravidass Ji in order that they can make these decisions to form a new faith?

May be the 'stern' words of Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh have come about due to angs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj being used to compile a new text. Simply not acceptable. harjits4, you claim Bhagat Ravidass Ji as your 'Guru'. If one of his limbs were removed without his hukam and worshipped by a man made faith, I doubt you would like it. Yet you seem to have no objections to the 'leaders' at Dera Ballan taking the same step with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. May be the lack of respect for Guru Ji is the problem here.

BiggChann Ji:

Jai Gurudev:

I can understand your feelings because you revere GGS as a living guru but we never did and would never and this was the point of conflict. This is not to imply that we disrespect it in any manner. We believed in bani rather than the medium it is written on and we allowed both mona or anybody else to read it. Off couse GGS being a holy book has its inherent respect but we didn't believe in the rituals of airconditioning it, making it go to sleep, wake it up, providing it heat in winter specifically etc. If sikhs do it than that's fine, we have no issue with it. If GGS is a shared granth than one group can't enforce their mariada on everybody since sharing inherently implies that it is respected and worshipped equally by all. We addressed Ravidass as Guru and sikhs didn't like it so it is better to take own route.

If I take your analogy of cutting the limbs than how many limbs Guru Nanak Dev Ji cut. Satguru Naamdev, Satguru Sain, Baba Sheikh Farid, Bhagat Rama Nand were all senior to Guru Nanak Dev ji and obviously weren't alive when Guru nanak took their bani and included in GGS. How did he ask them? Moreover, GGS is a compiled Granth and Guru nanak Dev or Sikhs, I am afrain to say, don't get ownership of Guru ravidass Bani or other bani of other's saints. What if kabir panthis come and ask you to give back Satguru Kabir's bani? So analogy of yours, I am sorry to say is more based on your personal feelings.

You may argue that it is living but then again, it is not for us. For us Ravidassias it has been used as a reason to murder innocent ravidassias right in its front. Now which living guru would allow that...? Where was the living guru when innocent worshippers were stabbed in Vienna or a child's throat was almost slashed with gatra sahib ji and held at ransom. You may talk about beadbi but true living guru would never allow cold blooded murder of anybody. That is not the job of a guru but that is the job of a blood thirty monster. Living guru forgives and leaves it up to almighty to take care of things.

I don't know what the real issue about the them declaring new religion but it really doesn't matter to sikhs in general BUT however it is not fair to those who are the followers.. Everyone is free to choose what he/she wants to do.. no man made dera can tell them what to do and what not to do.. Leaders do stuff for their own benefits !

I made the comment in my post because this guy Gurbacahn Singh, who is from one of the takhts is trying to talk tough and claiming that Ravidassia sikhs are integral parts of sikhism.

The person you are referring is Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh who is the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. It is very respectable position in our community thus i request you and others to speak with respect when involving them in discussion even if you don't agree with their stand

I think declaring new religion had become a necessity after the murder of Sant Rama Nand. The major issue is forcing of sikh mariada on Ravidassis which Ravidassias were finding difficult to digest and was becoming major point of conflict.

About Singh Sahib, my apologies, I didn't know his position. I had a cursory look at his comments and they seem to be very rude and coming from some goon rather than a Jathedar, who is religious head of the community. I read them in full now and they are not impressive. Someone so near the guru and bani has to be humble.