AJ111

So you are not condemning the Taliban style bullying and violence, just that it should not be videoed and shown to the world !

Can you understand why you don't get outside support for your "right" to carry swords. You also forfeit your right to complain about others treating you like this.

How will it be practical for anyone to vet and licence the select few from millions of Sikhs ? Since we all live in mixed secular societies, the only right for Sikhs should be to carry a blunt and small mock kirpan that cannot hurt anyone. We are not living in medieval times.

A relative of mine (non-Sikh) was involved in a traffic incident with a kirpan wielding Sikh in a rage. He managed to escape alive from that incident but why should he have had to face such danger. It is grossly unfair that a section of the population should be allowed to carry dangerous weapons.

What is the source of these photos ?

Are you satisfied they are real?

Imagine if J.S.Bhindranwale had allowed the innocent pilgrims to leave before the battle commenced or better still curtailed his ego and surrendered to the army.

All the bloodshed and carnage could have been avoided.

The whole world knows who committed this atrocity.....many here have a problem accepting that Sikhs can do such things and want to wish it away by clutching at straws and conspiracy theories.

Is it because so many Sikhs themselves insist on being identified as Sikhs and reject being called Indians ?

The lesson of the 1947 partition has not been learnt.

The majority on this forum still seek another partition of India based on religion as if the violence of 1947 and 1984 wasn't enough.

It is heart warming and inspiring to see so many on this forum caring about the welfare of animals and avoiding meat.

I think you will find the Sikh Kingdom died long before independence. At 1947 there was a muslim dominated Punjab and democracy had arrived.

Mocking Hindus like this is not a trait worthy of a noble Sardar ji.

When the sangat thought he might be hanged, their humanitarian sympathy created a mass wave. But since it does not look like he is ever going to be hanged, the sangat have moved on.

They were never actually interested in his political views.

A "violent partition" will not be required.

A simple plebiscite will do.

That would work in a place like Scotland - where the population is all Scottish. But in the current Punjab half the population is not Sikh.

Even the Sikhs have the opportunity to vote for independence parties like Simranjeet Mann's party. Instead they reject them completely and end up voting for Badal's Akalis, BJP and Congress instead. So a plebiscite will not achieve Khalistan.

It has to be violent and bloody fight for independence against impossible odds.

Yes having your own country can be a great benefit and this view is a regularly expressed and a cherished hope for all on the forum. The problem for Sikhs that want their own country is that half the population in the designated territory is non-Sikh (assuming all the Sikhs wanted it). Without a violent partition and ethnic cleansing bigger then 1947 how can this be achieved? How many innocents will get massacred to achieve it ? What type of country will it be - like a Taliban Afghanistan ?

There are many questions like this that are never answered.

Therefore it is dishonest to keep propagating this sentiment without offering a practical route map.

When you look at how fiercely the Tamil Tigers or Japanese fought you can realise that athletic build is not enough. The motivation for their cause and organisation were more important.

If athletic build was the most important factor then Sikhs, Pathans and blacks would be having great power. Such groups can not succeed in building modern empires on the basis of their physiques. You need to have brains, modern technology, etc. like the Israelies.

I don't know if these protests will achieve anything. The prisoners they want released are what Indians see as terrorists who tried to violently partition India. It's like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

My view is if they have completed their sentences they should be vetted and released if they pose no further risk. The authorities may be fearing that once released they will re-start their activities and risk the hard won peace.

As a non-Sikh observer I am always intrigued by the views on this forum.

Do contributors really believe that Cameron can influence judges ? Do you really believe that the English legal system is corrupt ?

Or is it that the 4 convicts are actually terrorists who attempted assasination on the streets of London.

I suppose the next call will be for Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa to include them in his campaign and for there to be a candlelight protest outside Westminster.

How are you saying my post is belligerent?

I have said that had they chosen a peaceful method of protest instead of assassination the genocide could have been avoided.

For me personally the genocide was shameful and a blot that cannot be argued away. The blame lies with the evil and violent people who perpetrated and planned the murders (from whatever ethnic or religious background).

You should not extend the blame to the rest of the population who were not involved or tried to protect and help the victims.

The title of “shaheed” should be reserved for someone who gives his life to protect the interests of the quam. Not for someone who acts on raw emotion and ends up causing immense damage to the quam that could otherwise have been avoided.

I must say your campaign is a bit ambitious – an independent state comprising Punjab, Haryana and Himachal. Why not add West Punjab, NWFP and Kashmir ?

There has already been a huge amount of effort and investment in trying to achieve Khalistan without getting any takers – do you really think anybody has got even the slightest interest in Greater Punjab ? Who will benefit – why do you want it ?

Frankly most people have moved away from formal religion - even the poor don't really believe in medieval fairy tales. Sikhs that convert to Christianity do it for money, assistance, etc. So instead of Sikh their new label will become Christian. But remember Sikhs and Muslims are trying to convert Hindus all the time so why complain.

Religion should be about a personal spiritual search - if Sikhi provides that path then great.

However today it is only about membership of a group that can fight with other groups for its “interests”, “rights” and separate “ identity” using every non-religious method including violence. These groups compete for space and domination over each other. What has all that got to do with spirituality ?

Imagine instead of a gruesome murder if the “shaheeds” had chosen a non-violent method of protest. You all know what the consequences of the assassination were:

1. Genuine grief from around the world including their political leaderships and validation of their view that Sikhs were a violent terrorist group
2. Grief and anger of the mass non-Sikh Indian population
3. Horrific revenge genocide that shamed India and humanity

Did the assassination really serve the interests of the Sikh quam or destroy thousands of innocent Sikh lives and livelihoods?

Was their action wise - yet you chose to call them “shaheeds”.

Of course Sikhs got discriminated. Look you all know the situation - everyone is a victim of some corruption or prejudice in India.

My argument is that once Sikhs got the label of being anti-national unfairly because of Khalistani activity that discrimination went up 10 fold. The discrimination also became nasty and violent.

I am ready to be corrected - but my readings about the Punjabi Suba movement was that it was a completely Sikh movement not a pan-Punjabi movement. The other groups were alienated to the extent of claiming Hindi as their mother tongue although they never spoke it. The mainly Sikh agenda of the movement led to disunity and Punjabi being unfairly associated only with Sikhs and not the whole population.

In other states e.g. Tamil Nadu , no one would ever challenge their local language status because people of those states were united on the topic irrespective of their religions.

Dr. Manmohan Singh is the most respected and famous Sikh in the world.

His image is the positive counter to the terrorist Bin Laden image being suffered by Sikhs in the USA yet this is how US Sikhs repay him.

How disgraceful !

It was very refreshing to hear Sardar Manjit Singh – as it is not a viewpoint anyone outside India has the guts to express. We must separate “Sikh” interests from “Khalistani” interests. The 2 are opposed to each other.

Remember how Sikhs lived with arrogant pride, respect and relative prosperity before 84. All this was destroyed by the Khalistani movement . Let me highlight some of the points of the Khalistani episode that we brush under the carpet (or counter unconvincingly with conspiracy theories)

Hijacking buses – separating the passengers to kill non-Sikhs

Making the Harmindar Sahib a base camp for terror activities

Cutting holes in the marble to make machine gun placements.

Knowing full well that even an inept government will have to act to assert its authority and innocents will get killed............then assassinating the popular prime minister.

What did you think would result ? Was it any surprise that thousands of innocent Sikhs that never supported Khalistan got killed as collateral damage for the Khalistani cause.

The Khalistan agenda was thus achieved to the point where they managed to get great sympathy for the cause but could not actually deliver Khalistan. The government rightly gets the blame for the pogrom but who do you think is equally guilty ?

As respected Dr. Gurnam has said the idea of Khalistan is not practical or achievable. Therefore the only other option is making India work to its original secular ideals. That is the only way for Sikhs to flourish in ANY part of India