sikhiseeker

Even if that was the case the fact of that matter is the vast majoirty of Bhatras became Sikhs in the Punjab area after converting to Sikhism by the Bhatras hence these people originated in Punjab not Sri Lanka. That is why there is nothing remotely south indian about Bhatras today. infact we are the opposite of South Indians in our culture We also do not have any south indian sounding names. but most of the Surenames in Bhats are native to Punjab not South India.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, the original Bhat Movement brought many people to sikhi, who then joined this movement in travel through India.

Yes, when this mass of people reached Punjab they would of done the same parchar and brought people to sikhi there too, but the emphasis is on sikhi. Due to the movement being poets, people associated with this community of Sikhs would have been called bhatrai, but this is where manmatt then creates caste, not sikhi. This is where just as any other jaat, caste creeps in and caste based marriage occurs which in result, works against the foundations of sikhi and it's tennets. The tennets of which the original bhats were so moved by, they physically moved throughout India singing that parchar.

Its nothing to do with 'choice'. "Like they say to an addict, you first have to admit there's a problem, then you will be able to resolve it." is sanctimonious crap no matter which way you look at it.

Are you a gyani ? Or do you just think you're a gyani ?

If neither, how does a gyani even come into this conversation ?

Hai hai baba....brother lol, were just literally on a next level tangent now. Shall we both just do our kirtan sohila and ardas for sarbhat da bhala?

Good idea or am I being to sanctimonious again?

I do wish I had enough gian to be a Giani though, it's been my dream since a kid. Hope to get there one day.

You answer it. You can't make accusations than run and hide behind sanctimonious crap.

If you read back at my posts (on any thread) you will see that the only time I mentioned anything that might even be construed to fall within the definition of 'supremacy' is when I mentioned (in the 'caste' and 'marriage' thread) how jatts are, and always have been, inferior to Khatris. If you think that is the same as saying jatts are superior than you either need to do 3 things:

• apologise
• purchase a dictionary
• retract your statements

Either way, you generally need to stop hiding behind sanctimonious crap. You're not a pious sant. We know one when we see one. And it ain't you fella.

WJKK WJKF

Veer, believe me I'm no sant, more like shataan. I don't hide either but I believe in gurmat, if you wanna call what I have to say as "sanctimonious crap" that's your choice. But do you say that to your Giani at your local gurdwara too?

Also why use "we" in knowing that I'm no sant? Who's "we".....please introduce me atleast veer.....leave what ever pehta you will aswell lol. Preferably cash of any currency. Thank you come again (Apu from the Simpsons)

Sikhseeker, I think you hit the nail on the head!

One thing I would like to add is that Bhatras did originate in Punjab. This is why Bhats are to be found in the heart of Punjab till the present day. Not far away places on the outskirts but in the very heart of Punjab. ie Amritsar, Lahore ect.

Bhatra is a collection of Sikhs it is not one race. Hence it contains people from many different clans. That is why when I go to a Bhatra wedding I am still amazed by the many different sikh groups in the Bhatras which can be seen by their surnames. You see Bhats are the ones who brought people to Sikhsim hence the Bhatras are made up of the Sikhs converts from Punjab in the 16th century.

Even if Bhatras originated from Uttar Pradesh only a handful would have entered Punjab. These people then brought many other Sikhs to Sikhism to hence how the Bhatra population grew so big.

Bhatra population today is dominated by people who originated in Punjab. But some people would rather believe in tales then the facts.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji,

The bhagats of the gurbani called "Bhat de swaiye" originated from Sri Lanka. The original Bhat parchar movement worked its way through India, upto northern India doing parchar of sikhi. This was gurmat, not manmatt. It is the manmatt of man which then attributes caste on this movement. These people were Sikh, with their parchar bringing other people towards sikhi.

Panjab is irrelevant to sikhi. Veer ji, read gurbani, there is no place on this earth where akal purakh does not exist, meaning sikhi has no geographical boundary.

Fact of the matter is, if you continue to believe in Bhatra sikh, the you have to believe in all of the other caste based Sikhs. These so called castes of then preserved due to arrive within them. The only way to realise this falsehood is sikhi, the Amrit and the Khalsa.

See I was being nice to you and thought that was the end of that but then you had to go and spoil it all with that comment. :angry2:

First of all, what 'rant' have I gone on ?

Secondly, when have I ever mentioned anything about jatt 'supremecy' ?

WJKK WJKF

Veer, please read your own posts, ask yourself the question and all will be answered.

Like they say to an addict, you first have to admit there's a problem, then you will be able to resolve it.

So u have a go n accuse me of being a jatt, purely on daft assumptions, YET, u come at jagsaw with the above reply, coz hes assumed ur a bhatra, n u dont like it?!

Sweardown u couldnt make this up....dear o dear

Apology accepted

WJKK WJKF

Thank you, I must of misread something you wrote within a previous thread which is obviously my mistake. But I'm glad you accept my apology veer.

Oi where did i mention i was a jatt? I am not a jatt for ur info! Nor have i promoted "castes" once, especially as i come frm a tribe which is not very numerous amongst sikhs. So take ur crybaby nonsense elsewhere.

WJKK WJKF

Sorry! Your ancestral tribe may not be numerous among sikhs, but within Sikhs, there are only Sikhs.

But again, sorry bro.

But especially jatts.

We most certainly are in agreement with that. We also both need to ensure no such thread is ever allowed to open again. If it does, I will wait patiently for you to come and gently knock it down. If you don't appear, rest assured I will do what I did on this one and massacre the claims made on it.

WJKK WJKF

Massacre another's caste supremacy rants with your own caste supremacy egotistic rants....please don't veer, il definitely be there and try and use gurmat to make a point ether than caste.

Did you read your own words which I quoted? You didn't mention it you see.............wonder why?

WJKK WJKF

Jagsaw Singh, I think you should go through the original thread, read all my replies on the thread to you and to other contributors, also any other post I have made on different topics.

You will then see that I am anti-caste, that means all castes not just jatts.

I'm sure we can both agree, that the thread needs to be closed, right?

:blink2: Full stops ? Commas ? Paragraphs ?

These are just some of the tools at your disposal in the construction of a coherent sentence bruvs. Try them, and your points will make more sense.

So, remind me, when have I ever "promoted my caste" ???

Could it perhaps be that your ignorance of all thing 'Punjab' means you confuse regions (doaba, malwa etc) with caste ?

Could it perhaps be that you confuse talk of the dialects of Punjabi with caste ?

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, apologies for my shortfall in grammar, I will try and be more concise for you.

As you requested, you stated:

Its the Sikh work ethic Roudh, and it is what differentiates us from the Muslims. It is also, in many ways, what, for the past 100 years or so, marked the Bhatras out as being very different from the other Sikh groups. That work ethic and the long held Punjabi female spirit of hard physical work had, up until now, been sorely lacking among the Bhatras. It is worth us remembering at this point, the letter Alexander the Great sent home to his mother in Greece when he reached Punjab. His letter stated that it was unlike any land he had attempted to conquer before as the Punjabi women would work the fields as much as the men. You see, my friend, in this regard Sikhi is similar to Calvanism in that most Sikhs, especially the jatts, believe that hard work is a route to salvation.

I myself am studying for my doctorate but earn my keep by working hard physical low paid manual labour in warehouses for minimum wage. It is part of my psyche, as a Sikh, to do that. I will happily clean toilets too. Its an honest living.

So, in that regard, one should at this point refer back to that book by Denzil you mentioned a number of times in your last post. According to The Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and British historians of British India, Bhatras were not considered ethnic Punjabi and their heritage was attributed to central India, specifically Uttar Pradesh. Those historians state that of all the Sikh communities the Bhatras are the only ones that were not native to the Punjab and only entered the Punjab after embracing Sikhism given Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's travels in central and southern India. I'm not saying they're right in their assessment but you have to admit it does somewhat explain the missing inherent Punjabi / Sikh spirit of gender equality and calvanist work ethic.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking why you are a hypocrite and don't rush into the plethora of bhatra related threads on this forum, started by bhatras, and strike them down.

Me ? I see a castist related thread started by a castist related person and I rush in to put the boot in. What I'm doing is ensuring that those castist thread starters know full well that they will not receive an easy ride here on this Sikh website. They can take their bhatra nonsense to the bhatra forums where they belong.

You ? You see bhatra thread after bhatra thread and it doesn't bother you at all. The minute the bhatra lies are exposed you pretend to be some pious saint.

Veer ji, what threads....the one by the starter of this thread in which we both conversed previously? I'm confused....what other Bhatra threads? Please tell me your killing me with the suspense.

Also, you came into a caste thread with your own castist opinion (as you stated, your a jatt sikh, lol) to say to the poster, take your caste to your caste based website whilst stating yourself this is a sikh website and at the same time promoting your own caste associating it with the nirmal panth sikhi and the casteless Khalsa? Brother, define contradiction for please?

I think you make valid points but where you came from will define where you are going, our ancestors did everything for us - without we would not be where we are.

But you are correct, end of the day it all boils down to your deeds not what your previous /future generations did/do

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, our ancestors have nothing to do with where your going or defining who you are. Gurmat and gurbani defines who you should be and where you should go.

Our ancestors gave us life in blood and flesh, by the hukam of our creator, it is the creator who is the only giver and supporter. No one else.

Also veer ji, we can converse through pm in more detail in order to get this thread closed as it's not achieving any benefit to sikhi parchar.

HE'S saying close it down quickly because many of the disgusting rituals and traditions of the Bhatras are being openly exposed. He needs it closed quickly.

YOU'RE saying close it down quickly because many of the disgusting rituals and traditions of the Bhatras are being openly exposed. He needs it closed quickly.

We're not silly here sikhiseeker. You regularly appear on bhatra related threads and big up the bhatras. There is a reason why you don't blame the castist bhatra who keeps on starting castist bhatra threads for anything. There is a reason why you're desparate to shut up someone else.

WJKK WJKF

Brother, unlike you and your open jattism, you assume I am of Bhatra ancestry? Why? Because I know history of the bhagats of gurbani? Lol

Veer ji, please state where I have "bigged up" any caste? While claiming your a jatt sikh yourself lol?

Exactly my point, don't bring it into your values but at least acknowledge where you came from. I married outside of my baradri so I think caste etc is a load off bs

WJKK WJKF

Me too....married with no emphasis on jaat.

Where I came from is irrelevant, where I need to get to is everything. My atmaa needs to merge back with parmaatma....by the gurus grace and at the feet of Akal purakh my deeds will be judged.

WJKK WJKF

MODERATORS, even the person who opened the topic is saying close it down lol!

Somebody, anybody........

Where has anyone stated they are better? Just asking a question. Why people always hate on people from jatt background? I mean when people proudly talk about the Panj Pyare they state the place they came from and their profession which can be interpreted as caste. It is not bad to acknowledge your ancestors profession. Unless for some reason you are so uncomfortable in who you are and are ASHAMED of your ancestors, there is NO SHAME in any profession which can be interpreted as caste as long as it is honest hard work.

What is wrong is to take proud in your so called caste and look down on others.

WJKK WJKF

Lol, I love the way you used CAPITAL LETTERS in the attempt to highlight that I maybe embarrassed of my ancestors lol. Brothers ancestors are the Sikhs who have their lives for me to call myself a sikh.

Also, I think you miss the point of why people state the panj pyare's PREVIOUS caste and the location they lived in. It's not to encourage ego in their individual castes, it's to show that they left it all behind brother, not bringing it into sikhi!

WJKK WJKF

Unfortunately, the moderators on this site would have closed this thread down if it was anything to do with the topic of jhatka as in sikhsangats words " jhatka is anti gurmat" however if there's a topic in which people who call themselves Sikhs whilst at the same time promoting their own caste supremacy, spouting nonsense and creating more segregation like jagsaw singh, sikhsangats moderators are non existent. Obviously caste supremacy is something sikhsangat.com and it's moderators deem to be fine, allowing jagsaw Singh to go on and on, and on, and on, and on and on.....please someone direct him to jattworld.com along with starstriker where they can gauge themselves on everything about their beloved caste.

Moderators lock this thread.

Paaji, that's what I am saying apart from way back as token gestures bibiyan performed Kirtan, why is it stopped. Also under sgpc, I think on the odd occasion it has happened, but very rare indeed.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I can't remember where I saw or read this, but I think it was the sikh channel? Someone said that women are permitted to do kitten at Sri harminder sahib, however any katharevousa ha to be well versed and read, being able to sing over a 1000 shabad. Due to the life and role of many women within a life of ghristi, many are able to get to that threshold?

I don't agree with that at all, I think if you can sing shabad and are trained, Kirtan should be permitted with equality of gender.

I wasn't talking about Kirtan. I was talking about tradition, culture and language, which was I specifically mentioned the words "tradition" "culture" and "language".

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, maybe you should start a new topic specifically on "tradition", "culture" and "language", as this topic is about Muslims doing KIRTAN in which the history of the mirasi has been discussed.

Weren't Mirasis originally sufi though?

WJKK WJKF

Yea to be fair I think a high percentage of mirasi are still Sufi Musalmaan. Obviously a certain percentage would have converted to sikhi, however their role is still basically hired talented musicians. Sikh kirtan jathas somewhat different as they believe in the gurmantar in which they sing, where as the hired mirasi sings beautifully and gets payed his dues.

Because it is arguably THE most expensive agricultural land in the world (i.e 1 acre in Punjab can buy you between 15 and 20 acres in the UK, between 50 and 100 acres in Canada etc) the majority of agricultural landowners in Punjab are 'millionaiires on paper'. As humans, we all sometimes have reasons for an injection of capital, be it a business venture or, as you mentioned, offspring wishing for money to buy a house etc, and so selling land in Punjab is an option that is always there. Given the diaspora, it is always a sellers market regardless of the economy, where, once someone finds out you may be interested in selling, buying arrive with suitcases full of money ready to outbid each other. The Canadian and Italian diaspora especially big in this regard.

I do. We all do. My children and we go back twice a year. In fact, now that we're in November, this is the peak time when villages in Punjab are jam packed with little cokneys, brummies, californians, vancouverites and Italians. Sikh children all over the globe just love it on the farms there. They detest the dirt, filth, smell etc of the towns and cities but absolutely adore the clean life on the farms.

If you're referring to actual farming, like you are, do you also write letters to the UK's biggest landlords and ask them why they and their kids are not farming their lands themselves ?

There is, my friend, a big difference between landowners and farm-workers. All over earth, and Punjab is no different, the land owners are 'overseers' of farming. They oversee the work and my children are quickly learning all there is to learn in this regard thank you very much.

Well thats very true and I'm glad you've mentioned it. You see, of the world-wide Sikh diaspora, we in the UK are the only ones where farming has not played a significant part in the national Sikhs. In the USA for example, Sikhs are the nations single largest producers of fruit and nuts. In Canada, they own and farm wheat farms so big you need a light plane to reach the other end. Dairy farming in Italy. Tea plantations in Malaysia etc.

WJKK WJKF

I think you have misunderstood my post, I was basically asking you, if you love panjab so much and your jatt heritage, why don't you and your family migrate back to your rural village literally? Why live in a foreign land?

The other thing you have confused me about is you promote within your posts the hard work ethic jatts have and how both male and female worked the field and that some Sikhs do not hold this work ethic, directing it indirectly towards the bhatra community within this topic. Now, you have stated in essence that the land owner does not work his land, the employees do, you also stated that even though you are well educated and could get a high paying job, you feel the need to do a job which requires manual labour? So which is it? You are teaching your children to oversee work done by whom on the fields? Will your children eventually farm fields or oversee farming of fields as you say, within the uk at some point?

Rural Punjab v Urban Punjab = A world apart sometimes.

On many levels, traditions, culture and language etc is as different as Poland is from Sweden.

As conversations on this very forum testify, western Sikhs from an urban background mistakingly believe their family traditions and culture to be the norm among all Sikhs and vice versa for the rural Sikhs.

WJKK WJKF

Sorry disagree, kirtan is not a family tradition or culture, it's the norm for Sikhs rural or urban. Kirtan being an integral part of sikhi, the very method Guru Nanak Dev Ji utilised as to reach the hearts of people he met on his travels.

No, the Muslim mirasis performing kirtan in the Gurdwaras was still the norm in most rural Gurdwaras in Punjab right up until August 1947. As you mentioned, it was perhaps different in the historical Gurdwaras of the large towns and cities.

WJKK WJKF

Yea probably a difference in location then however many members of my family were kirtani jathas, originally lahore de sikh.

You mentioned earlier in this thread Roudh, how many Bhatras are mving into traditional Sikh towns and cities. That really is a great thing because it brings all of us Sikhs together and hopefully removes the long standing isolation. Together, we can all learn so much from each other and slowly but surely drop our respective bad habits and find some common ground. Right now, being isolated away from the other Sikhs, it is apparant that you have a very distorted view about your numbers. Officially, the otal number of Sikhs in the UK is 410,000. Of that number, the Bhatras a very small minority.....I would guess between 5 and 10%. Even at the highest percentage, there would be at most 40,000 bhatras in the UK.

The only pride I have is that of being a Sikh. If you imagine I've written anywhere that I'm proud of being a 'Jatt' than you are mistaken Sikhseeker.

I think you will have to search far and wide before you find a jatt Sikh in the UK that has actually sold his or land in Punjab. Not only is it one of the most fertile agricultural lands on earth it is also some of the most expensive (1 acre in Punjab costs the same as between 10 and 20 acres in the UK), with prices always rising. My children love sending there holidays on the farm there and I think it woud be so beautiful if all Skh children in the UK, regardless of their background (urban or rural), could enjoy the same. The lush green fiels, the fresh cclean air, the animals. It really is my dream that all our communities here get closer together as a tight knit family unit where kids from a bhatra background can also experience the Punjabi farm joy.

WJKK WJKF

Akal purakhs wahegurus beautiful creation can be seen all over the world and beyond. I have personally come across quite a few people within your caste in which the older generations are now selling their land due to the younger generation not being bothered and also because they moved out of Punjab and reside in another country, where the economy is more stable, they are financially secure and their children/children have become to westernised to have the knowledge to work the field or even survive as to how your ancestors did. Veer ji, why don't you take your kids and family back to your rural village? I don't see many "jatt" migrating back to their rural villages in India to once again, continue farming however I do recognise the numbers immigrating to countries like Italy, Dubai, Uk, Canada and Malaysia etc?

WJKK WJKF

If any brother or sister wishes to discuss the origins and history of the composers of the bhata de swaiyye without bringing any caste supremacy issues within the discussion or jay status into it lol, please pm me. Interestingly, the word waheguru is written once within our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji, within the swaiyye of the bhats.

Thats how it always was in most Gurdwaras in Punjab, from our Gurus' time right up until August 1947.

Traditionally, it was the function of Muslim Mirasis to perform kirtans in Gurdwaras. We Sikhs only took that function over relatively recently, in 1947.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I think after the Sakhi of Balvand Rai and his brother Satta dhoom within the time of our Guru Arjan Dev ji, learning kirtan was encouraged by our guru and was then undertaken by his sikh, no longer continuing with the tradition of the the musical trained mirasi.