sikhiseeker

Reply to what, brother ?

I think this thread has had it's day and I'm glad the admins have locked the new one started.

But....if you're referring to the description you gave about your own family history, and the way your grandmother and other females, performed wonderfully after so much hardship than of course I understand and appreciate that. But where I feel you are wrong, is the way in which you prescribe your own family's experience to everyone else.

In normal circumstances, no limits should be placed on a Sikh....and a 'Sikh' has no gender. A Sikh can be a male or a female. Both as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' our females have always worked out in the fields, always been warriors out in the battlefield. THAT, is our tradition. So you have to understand that as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' the western model of the housewife at home whilst husband earns a living is totally alien to our history and psyche. But things have got a little topsy turvy...upside down in that we now have Sikhs that believe Sikh females should not be out earning a living and term those that do as 'western' influenced. This is madness. :stupidme:

But the thing is that our background does play such an important part in shaping our psyche. For the Jatt Sikhs, the calvinist thinking that hard work is a route to salvation is so deeply held it will take another couple of centuries to break. For example, there are so many aunties of mine that live in £2 million houses in Norwood Green and Osterley etc, i.e hardly short of money, and yet they continue to work up to 60 hours per week as cleaners in local hospitals and schools. That calvinist hard work as a route to salvation ethic is just so deeply inbedded in the Jatt Sikh's character. Lets take my example for a moment. Seriously, as I haven't got funding for my research and having to pay my way through my doctorate, I have to earn a living whilst studying. In all honesty, with my qualifications I could relatively easily get a job so much easier and paying so much more than what I'm earning now. But there's just something within me, something spiritual, that requires me to fulfill hard physical, manual work in order to feel spiritually connected. Its a Jatt thing for sure but I'd like to feel it was a Sikh thing because we jatt sikhs have always referred to it as the Sikh work ethic. Evidentally though, sadly, there are many Sikh groups that do not possess it.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I find your post quite patronising at the least. You declare "THAT is our tradition" as an attempt to segregate yourself within the division of your jatt caste, as it usually happens, yet after all your education, you fail to understand that you being as you say, a "jatt sikh" is contradictory to the sikh rehat maryada? Yet you post statements like "There is nothing sikh....nothing Khalsa....about a community where something like zero percent of females have a dastar"? Lol alil bit of an assumption there veer ji. Just turn on britasia and see the stereo types of your castes females and males, that is not great either veer.

Every caste has its pros and cons, however the Khalsa is perfect brother. The term "jatt sikh" can never be coined together as it is Mannmat not gurmat.

You have pride in calling yourself a "jatt sikh", do you really think Guru Nanak Dev ji would call himself a "Brahmin sikh" or Shaheed baba Jeevan Singh a "mazhabi sikh" or Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh a "Jatt sikh"? I don't think so, so what gives you the right to bring your pride for your ancestors and ancestral ways within the nirmal panth of Shiri Guru Nanak Dev ji mahraj?

If your jatt caste have so much love and pride for your caste, way of life and ancestors, why did you sell your land and move from panjab? Why not continue working the field and be a pujari of your past ancestors. If you cannot renounce your caste, why accept the gurus Amrit which when taken tells you literally, your previous caste/clan/ancestry is no more, you are now Khalsa!

You assume your beloved caste only knows hard work, yet you have failed to recognise the fundamental pillars of Guru Nanaks message which all Sikhs around India (not just panjab) and the world should follow which are kirat karo, vaand chako and Naam japo. You see, sikhi teaches the hard work ethic which builds the psyche of its sikh, not the Sikhs previous caste.

Too some up brother, I'm sure you have heard that it was confirmed by the Vatican that Guru Nanak Dev ji vistited and did parchar in Italy and to the pope, his message being that the blood of man runs the same. What a pity that this message has fallen on death ears on so many Panjabis who wish to call themselves sikh. When in an Akhand path, do you put your fingers within your ears when our guru sings the bhat de swaiye?

After all brother, there is nothing sikh.....Khalsa.....to one whom claims to be a Jatt Sikh, Bhat Sikh, Mazhbhi Sikh or whatever else.

Khalsa Meri Jaan ki Jaan. There is no caste in sikhi. Only equality of the sikh and the non sikh alike. One chain, one body, one motion, one maryada, one thought. No we, no I only US. This is the way we will win all the issues our Kaum is facing today, united not segregated.

WJKK WJKF

If your dad, uncles and brothers are too lazy to do housework tell them to pull their finger out.

If your brothers, dad and uncles are too dim to be able to make roti tell them to learn.

Was your grandad so incapable of preparing to hold the Guru's diwan that your grandmother had to do it ?

Was there something on the television your grandad couldn't possibly miss that only your grandmother could read the hukamnama ?

Have any of the men in generations of your family ever been capable of doing anything themselves ?

Whatever point you attempted to make 'Sikhiseeker' tells us more about the inherent male misogyny in your family than anything else.

Your pathetic attempt to justify disgusting and totally un-Sikh gender inequality in the name of 'motherhood' is highly offensive to generations of Sikh women. Pre-Sikhi, our female ancestors in Punjab were famous for working as hard as the men. With Sikhi, they were at the forefront in the battlefield. You attempt to justify your misogyny in the name of 'tradition' and 'not being western' yet you fail to realise that the gender equality our Guru's espoused was many hundreds of years ahead of any such equality in the west. When it comes to gender equality the 'western modernists' have learned from us.......not us from them.

I take it you are not a hypocrite and you strongly believe Mai Bhaggo was way too 'modern' and 'western' and an embarrassment to her family being out on horseback fighting when she should have been at home getting her husband's cha, roti and sabji ready ?????

And Mehtab Singh, now that you've started pasting really really long lists of 'Caste' surnames on this Sikh forum are we all to expect long lists of ramgharia, khatri and jatt surnames any time soon....or were you just having a silly moment ?

WJKK WJKF

Jagsaw Singh, I am waiting on your reply veer ji?

Chill yaar! You were not the target of my message, no one else was either, it was a general comment. But please do Ardas for my anger. I'd appreciate that

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, the ardas is done but your message was quotining my username, hence why I assume it was for my attention.

WJKK WJKF

Rather than attach ourselves to geographical boundaries, castes and clans and skin colours. We should recognise where and who the foundation of the Khalsa Panth were. The panj pyara were from all over India, of different castes and traditions, but all this was left behind and gurmat and Amrit was the way forward. After this foundation, there have been uncountable numbers of Sikhs, men women and children who gave their life's for sikhi, not caste or clan or profit or modernisation. Just for truth and equality.

I typed up a long post, but then I am like screw it LOL. No I am no intellectual, and I rather not disclose my emotions, because I would end up swearing which would hurt my feelings as well as others who read.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. After all this is a forum where Sikhs are able to converse, if you wish not to converse with me, don't. If you feel you cannot reply based on your emotion and experience due to you swearing at someone, I will do ardas for you to calm your anger. But you didn't have to reply in the way you did, as no quote/post was made personally too you. If you do not care what I have to say, simply don't read it.

If your dad, uncles and brothers are too lazy to do housework tell them to pull their finger out.

If your brothers, dad and uncles are too dim to be able to make roti tell them to learn.

>>>what a ridiculous comment!

Was your grandad so incapable of preparing to hold the Guru's diwan that your grandmother had to do it ?

Was there something on the television your grandad couldn't possibly miss that only your grandmother could read the hukamnama ?

Have any of the men in generations of your family ever been capable of doing anything themselves ?

>>>veer ji, after losing everything in India when independence was given and Pakistan was created, my family who lived in Lahore walked as many other Sikhs to patiala with nothing. My gran carried my dad all the way. After coming to the uk again with nothing as everything was lost, my grandad worked hard in the industrial foundries without giving up his sikhi roop, he died early with cancer. My whole family have worked supporting not only their families, however many other families which came to the uk later with money, a roof over their Heads and food.

Whatever point you attempted to make 'Sikhiseeker' tells us more about the inherent male misogyny in your family than anything else.

Your pathetic attempt to justify disgusting and totally un-Sikh gender inequality in the name of 'motherhood' is highly offensive to generations of Sikh women. Pre-Sikhi, our female ancestors in Punjab were famous for working as hard as the men. With Sikhi, they were at the forefront in the battlefield. You attempt to justify your misogyny in the name of 'tradition' and 'not being western' yet you fail to realise that the gender equality our Guru's espoused was many hundreds of years ahead of any such equality in the west. When it comes to gender equality the 'western modernists' have learned from us.......not us from them.

>>>> what is so important about panjab? Sikhi has no geographical boundary. There is no difference of a sikh from Delhi to a sikh from panjab. If you cannot recognise the importance of the role of a mother and how a child learns so much from their mother in the early years about sikhi and you think that's insulting to a women confuses me. The very fact that when my grandfathers generation were working seven days a week and as a family, the gurus diwan was always still put on demonstrates the dedication to sikhi of the early sikh settlers. It also demonstrates the equality of our religion.

I take it you are not a hypocrite and you strongly believe Mai Bhaggo was way too 'modern' and 'western' and an embarrassment to her family being out on horseback fighting when she should have been at home getting her husband's cha, roti and sabji ready ?????

>>> mata mai bhago demonstrated the will, work ethic and most importantly gurmat in order for her to do what she did. What mai bhago did was not what you call 'modern' or 'western'. It was simply gurmat, just like how mata gujri demonstrated, mata kevi, mata nanaki and many many more strong sikh women. People strive to be modern, forgetting gurmat.

I don't understand how you have taken offence to my post as I am very anticaste and believe in the equality of women to the point of which I feel a sikh women should also be able to become a panj pyara, I did start a topic on this a while back but it was locked.

And Mehtab Singh, now that you've started pasting really really long lists of 'Caste' surnames on this Sikh forum are we all to expect long lists of ramgharia, khatri and jatt surnames any time soon....or were you just having a silly moment ?

Cheers geezer for sayin it how it is. I was gonna mention the whole obsession that bhatras have with gold, rings, jewellery and the most hideous of all....the pardaah (veil), but i thought leave it.

WJKK WJKF

Once again veer ji, you don't surprise me. Why don't you just have a conversation about the above with your friends? Why don't you and your friends sit and think of what you deem "right and sikhi" within your castes in comparison with gurmat?

WJKK WJKF

This post has basically been the usual case of individuals who hold much pride within their ancestry and caste/clans and then trying too justify this pride within a sikh context of "we jatt/Bhatra did this" and "you bhatra/jatt don't do this"......Just STOP!

It is the individuals what makes up groups of people what do great things and call themselves sikhs, as soon as caste comes into like bhat sikh or jatt sikh it no longer has any connection to sikhi.

From reading the posts, what's evident is by the person who posted this topic and other contributors that one thing people have failed to realise is that when a sikhs wife is at home, they simply don't sit idle? Being a mother and learning your children about sikhi is much more important than a factory job or being a lawyer. It's our mothers who provide the initial passion within their children's minds for sikhi. Becoming "modernised" does not mean becoming more sikh. When I was young I can remember my grandmothers and sisters preparing to hold the gurus diwan and my grandmother reading the hukamnama. See, the modernisation these so called "Sikhs" are conversing about is the equality of men and women within a western ideology, not equality from a sikh perspective.

If a Sikh gives shaheedi for the Khalsa panth, it is so called Sikhs that after the Sikhs death they then attach caste on the Sikhs name, this is what we are good at doing, nothing much else like celebrating the castles equality of the Khalsa sikh that gave their life!

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, for such an intellectual sikh, why would you bring yourself down to such a level as to respond in such away?

You seem to be obessed by your 'caste' Roudh. This obssession has clouded your reasoning as the Khatris are the oldest community of Sikhs.

There is a world of difference between how you perceive yourself and how others perceive you. I think you might find common consensus among the wider Sikh community is that the Bhatras have practices that are extremely un-Sikh.

There is nothing Sikh...nothing Khalsa....about women keeping the veil.

There is nothing Sikh....nothing Khalsa....about Sikh women keeping chundh in front of SGGS ji in the Gurdwara.

There is nothing Sikh.....nothing Khalsa....about keeping rings in your noses like bulls and enough shabby chic jewellery that would make even a gypsy blush.

There is nothing Sikh....nothing Khalsa about marriage dowries.

There is nothing Sikh...nothing Khalsa.... about a community where something like zero percent of the females have a dastar.

There is nothing Sikh.....nothing Khalsa....about a community that practices widespread fortune telling and palm reading for a living.

There is nothing Sikh....nothing Khalsa....about habitually murdering and then eating like cannibals god's animals.

There is nothing Sikh...nothing Khalsa...about being of the mindset that the Khalsa is only for males and females do not count.

I suggest, Roudh, you stop this casteist nonsense and re-evaluate what you percieve to be your community's reputation. The best start for this is acknowledging the fact that 50% of Sikhs are female. These 50% are not some sort of sub-standard low value human beings. They are Sikhs.

WJKK WJKF

LOL, if it is "the wider Sikhs consensus" of what you have contributed within your post above, I suggest that you stay clear of these so called sikhs passing judgement. Have they not seen the other nonsenses which occur within so called jatt sikhs, ramgharia sikhs, Mazhabi Sikhs lol?

There is a world of difference of what you and the wider consensus of Sikhs perceive themselves to be than what dhan Dhan akali nihang shiri guru Gobind Singh ji and his Khalsa panth perceives you to be.

I was trying to find the video on youtube but I can't atm.

Its Sang Kartar Singh ji bhindranwale mahaurakh explaining that one morning after ishnaan Sang Gurbachan Singh ji bhindranwale wad handing him the kirpaan that he wore normally. Sant Kartar Singh ji was handing his ishnaan vali Siri Sahib with 1 hand and receiving his other Siri Sahib to wear during the day.

His timing came to be a bit off and he did not have a Siri Sahib on him for like 1-2seconds while he was receiving the other one. He says that in his 13 years he was not scolded as much he was on that moment just because he didn't hold the Siri Sahib being given. His tankaah came to be doing 5 Japji Sahibs off of Maharajs saroop and sangat joined him aswell.

These are not just mere obects that fall off and ohh so what pick it up and put it on. These are our ANGS! We have to give them proper respect.

WJKK WJKF

The above is all fine and yes I agree, respect should be given, however not taken out of context. There is no physical object which will bring you some form of favour when weighing up your paap. It is only achieved by Naam and gurmantar, the 5 k's should be respected, but they act within a role here within this realm as a reminder of who we are (uniformity) and what we stand for, however we do not take these physical objects with us to the darbar of satguru to be judged. It is just simply our aatma, however it's is the level of Naam we have uttered with devotion an our sees in good deeds which have been recorded, if one was Gurmukh in life then they are exempt from this whole juditional system and achieve mukhti.

Your aatma should have waheguru in every breath and thought living within ghristi jeevan.

But i do believe there is shakti within the kakaar and especially the Kirpan. That is why it should be used and respected. If your Kirpan fell onto the floor, it should obviously be picked up and put back on. I don't see why we should confuse such a simple matter, how is the place of where the kirpan was to fall upon any dirtier/cleaner than the body of which it then adorns both physically and spiritually. When it was used to decapatae another human being, was the blood then not some form of contamination onto the blade or if it was thrusted within the stomach, would the bodily fluids/decomposing foods not taint the blade? There is no pavitar dharti, this has to be looked on within a spiritual and physical outlook IMO.

WJKK WJKF

It's a good thing these singers, male or female do not use Singh/Kaur in their names as most abide by anti Gurmat.

anyone can train with their shastar , but the literal meaning of kirpan means

Kirpa + aan

mercy+ dignity

it is only taken out for that

thats why i guess some people are saying it shouldnt be taken out like that, and yes you ask any bajur here they will say the same in india , no its not a fantasy

you want to train , take a blunt object of similar size to train first

even maharaja ranjit singh's kirpan never was with drawn to fight

it was used as a shield

WJKK WJKF

I understand your point, obviously there are different stages of training which have to be undertaken for every martial student and yes using something other than a talwar/Kirpan before one is capable of handling the weapon. However, the Kirpan should not be limited from training and simply sit in its scabbard.

I understand the concept of the shakti of akaal within the shastar, it should be respected and practised.

WJKK WJKF

I find it somewhat astonishing at some of the opinions I have read.

What a ridiculous notion, how can a sikh train his weaponry without weapons lol? It's like because we hold so much reverence to the shirt Guru Granth Sahib ji, we should not open the angs to take hukam as it's sacrilege lol.

If a Kakhar falls on the floor, you pick it up, simple! There is no 100% sacred place were the Kakhar can fall! At the end of the day, you wear the 5 k's on your body, which is never clean 100%. These are a uniform for the tann and Mann!

The very fact that some Sikhs suggest we should not train with our Kirpan Kakhar and train with another Kirpan demonstrates that many many Sikhs simply wee a ceremonial sword with no knowledge or understanding it's main purpose of creation, death for justice! Every sikh should use their Kirpan, it's not a fashion statement.

For the opinion that Sikhs should better still use guns than swords, every weapon has it's area of use, from far distance weapons, short distance weapons and hand to hand combat.

Wake up sikhs, what is worse than a sikh who can't use his shastar or hands in combat.

If we brought one Mughal soldier from the 16th century to the present and had to fight sikh against Mughal, how many sikh would be capable of taking on this one man? After all, we can't talk him to death about being a meat eater, or a vegetarian or better still a vegan lol? I think the Mughal would probably end up dead via no sword, gun or hand but from laughing, after the state of today's pop belly Sikhs what is left to fear?

To the Sikhs who do train their shakti/bhagti, carry on and be strong brothers and sisters for one day we may need utilise these skills!

Course they take money so do their record labels/producers people do not do this for nothing... besides I have never seen any news article showing them directly donating all their proceeds of such albums/cds to any cause .

WJKK WJKF

Glad to see someone who sees this issues negative affect on our youth.

I agree with your posts on this subject matter, especially supporting our own Kieran jathas.

WJKK WJKF

WJKK WJKF

Why woułd you use such language to another sikh like "mug" is beyond me, on a forum which allows people to put forward their opinion.

Also, thanks for putting up the dharma sewa record statement. However it doesn't change the fact that the some people who sing dharmic songs and gurbani are living and promoting within their other non dharmic musical material and indeed their lifestyle, a very non Gurmat way of life, "antisikh" if you like.

That is the fact of the matter, which we should all not allow to happen.

Brother you still have not replied to my original post to you on this subject matter.

People like Jazzy B, who have created such a huge audience didn't promote the Badal Satkar for no reason, they too, the same as Badal love nothing of Punjab, punjabi's or it's sikhi, they only love the money they can secure.

Jazzy B supports Badal, the back stabbing man who held secret meetings with the Indra government right before the 84 attacks and then fled Punjab. Then jazzy b decides to don a t shirt of sant bhindrawale and Singh about sant siphai?

At some point, you have to question where your preferred entertainment is coming from. If one calls themself a sikh and does everything but sikhi, then says to audiences you shouldn't do this in there dharmic song and in the next video he/she does exactly what they told audiences not too should leave you at the point that it really just emty words being sung on their behalf for some other purpose, right?

I can see why sikhiseeker is against such particular singers but i am not going to reply about that issue as this will start another unholy cyber war of the most hated topic lol.

Anyway, Dharam Seva Records of UK are the best thing to ever happen in our vulgar and disgusting Punjabi music industry. Rather than blatantly finding mistakes in them and others, you should have something positive plan chalked out. It is bit sad to see hatred against those who of course are not perfect but at least they are doing even 0.01% effort for positiveness in our society.

Please do not go on living on by pulling legs of other person who is bit odd than your lifestyle. Pind di burriyan vang lari janday.

WJKK WJKF

If you wish to bury your head in the sand, that's your choice.

I will prefer to create awareness of such people like Jazzy B, Diljit Dosanj and sukhshinder Shinda and highlight their mixed vulgar message and try stop them from becoming role models and using sikhi for their own money making vehicle just like some of the dera leaders.

How do you know they make money from dharmic albums/songs? Ive heard previously from jazzy b and sukshinder shinda, who r a duo from day 1, that they do not take money from dharmic albums, also a dharmic record label, called dharmic records, does not make money from releasing religious songs.

WJKK WJKF

Exposure on channels and audiences to which they don't reach in the tacky music channels.......results in sales, venerating these people as role models, wrongly!

Also, you nether answers my questions?

He isnt the only sikh/panjabi singer to have sung songs for his career, and then sung dharmic songs on the side, which is seen as seva for the panth. He's my fave panjabi singer since the 90s, and fair enough he has done few songs, which i wasn't sure what he was thinking of at the time, but not many panjabi singers from the west have kept it so raw n desi like jazzy. Bhangra bands from the 80s pioneered bhangra/panjabi music, and also released dharmic songs on the side, jazzy isn't doing anyfink different. He was the 1st singer unquestionably who supported balwant singh rajoana with a video online, which went viral, he was also the man who supported "sadda haq" movie with his song 'baghi', and now he has done the track for the new dharmic film "yoddha". Atleast give credit where it due!

How is what he's doing, any different to sikhs who do anti-sikh things like drink/smoke/cut hair/do nindya/electoral frauds (committees) etc and then do mattha tek in the gurdwara, and possible even do kirtan on stage?

So do you hold the sort of people as you have described in the above paragraph in such high esteem as you do jazzy b? As your right, their the same.

So if a guy or girl wearing a dastar was smoking, would you deem that ok or condemn it as it's a bad image for the panth? Or as their still in the roop of a gursikh it counts for something, right?

In not concerned about Bhangra now or whenever. I'm concerned about Gurmat, sikhi ithias and gurbani.

If jazzy b cared about the panth, he wouldn't do what he does and would simply walk the path of a gurmukh. Not put a pag on when he feels like making some money of the names of our shaheed. It's just about the money, not seva.

Simple.

WJKK WJKF

Once again, whilst watching the sikh channel, I see jazzy b, singing about "sant siphai" promoting this new film!

Why Jazzy B? He does enough single handedly to promote everything other than Gurmat, he then dons bana, parades around with a gun and sword telling "US" about sikhi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then on the next channel it's >>>>>>>>

Surely this is no good for our youth, whilst were arguing about interfaith marriages within sikhi and it's detrimental affect, this guys giving enough other mixed messages of his own to a huge recipient audience much bigger than what our gurdware are reaching!!!!

I don't mind him doing what he does within the music industry along as he keeps sikhi out of it.

WJKK WJKF

veer ji, I too feel much frustration on how in western countries maryada has become tailored to fit "westernised Sikhs".

In the Akal Takhat Rehat Maryada I dont think it says about wearing any shoes in the langar hall specifically, however it states shoes should be removed on entry of the gurdwara. I think in western countries sangat have redefined the boundary of the gurdwara as to only the darbar, hence why they trapes their shoes in and out and how many people irregardless of age, take their head covering off within the langar hall, not realising that when accepting langar, you are accepting blessed food with Naam it's main ingredient. The parents accepting langar for their kids then throwing it in the bin because they dislike it and it's not pizza. The waste also contrary to the maryada and gurmat, equivalent of throwing parshaad into the bin....how wrong on so many levels.

Also, I think because in the uk were not sitting on the floor next to one another and we sit mainly on tables people don't remove their shoes as again it's a more westernised custom.

However western "Sikhs" will continue to do as they like, justifying themselves with silly excuses like how many children go within the gurus darbar with their heads uncovered all across the uk, contrary to the maryada.

To sum up, I personally would say shoes should be left at the door/entrance hall of the gurdwara and no indoor shoes should be permitted for sangat and sevadars.

What is really shocking is how few people give any help to the victims of 84. This something you do not need any weapons training for. The Sants and Badals will happily give help to non Sikhs but will not help the Shaheed parwars or 84 victims.Sarbat da Bhalla does not mean you do not help your own.

WJKK WJKF

Yea definitely, it always gonna be the same scenario, so called sant babeh making moneybusing Sikhi as a vehicle and the government officials lining their own pockets prostituting themselves, their land and it's people to making rupees into lakhs and then lakhs into crores.

We can still be united with different Rehats, like both Taksal and AKJ did in 1978. I know some people would really want to do something but they just can't. But I do find it very disgraceful when I see a Sikh with Gatra and Kirpan holding up a sign saying, "Give us Justice" (I am influenced by Jugraj Singh by the way). When you have the Kirpan you can get your own justice for the Panth. Satwant and Beant never protested a picked up a sign saying,"Sikhs want Justice". The thing is people don't really want to do anything, (most not all)

WJKK WJKF

Yea I agree, however the difference in rehat should be based on personal opinion and not different interpretation of ithias, Sikhi Granths and the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib as then we end up going down the road of religions like Islam and how people say "they interpretate it like this and we interpretate it like that" which I think then looks real shabby.

But yea your right, the Kirpan is not just a ceremonial sword.

Really, it's only from the movement and support of NRI Sikhs that have shone some light on 84, and of course groups of individuals within Panjab who re true sikhs.